The Titan Debate: Sondheim vs Lloyd Webber

[esparza 333]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:23pm

Both have written brilliant music and created some of the greatest song ever written. Many have seen genius in their complex melodies and phenomenal lyrics. So the debate is on.

Updated On: 8/3/08 at 03:23 PM

[ahmelie]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:24pm

You're kidding.

Sondheim.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:26pm

Debate over.

[GIZMO2]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:29pm

Lloyd Webber is simply more commercial.

That means that eventually every bon-bon-eating, pink-sweats-wearing housewife in middle America will have heard his songs at some point, and develop a yearning to hear his tunes sung live on Broadway.

Result: Cats and Phantom.

Sondheim will never have such luck.

Thank god.

[tourboi]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:30pm

I still don't understand why we need this debate.

I like both for various reasons. Some people hear that and scoff. It's like saying I like a fine wine, but I love a fruity cocktail every now and then, too.

[BustopherPhantom]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:35pm

"Oh that's easy! Webber's music isn't original-"

"Well, neither was Puccini's."

"Okay, but it's superficial, too! It doesn't have a depth of feeling!"

"Superficial music is what half of musical theater is built on."

"But he brainwashes you, he recycles his tunes endlessly!"

"No through-composed piece can survive without repeating themes."

"But-but-but he's a jerk! A jerk, I tell you!"

"Well, you got me there."

Sondheim, it is.

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:36pm

They are two entirely different composers.

Sondheim is a more technically inclined musician while Webber is commercially inclined. Will Sondheim ever reach the commercial success of Webber? God, no. But he's much more highly lauded than Webber will ever be. I personally prefer Sondheim (seeing as I loathe Webber), but both men have an insanely devoted fan base. They're geniuses at what they do. Everyone has to agree on that.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:37pm

Many have seen genius in their complex melodies and phenomenal lyrics.

Webber doesn't write the lyrics for his shows.

Updated On: 8/3/08 at 03:37 PM

[B3TA07]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:38pm

You could maybe have a legit debate over who has EFFECTED Musical Theatre the most...maybe

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:42pm

You could maybe have a legit debate over who has EFFECTED Musical Theatre the most...maybe

No. No, you could not. If by affected you mean in terms of money and introducing the term "fangirl/boy" to musical theatre? Sure. What the hell. Webber is Affect-master Flex. If you're thinking in terms of actually inspiring people and bringing a whole new level to the American musical (which I pray to Jesus you are), it's Sondheim. Hands down.

[GIZMO2]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:43pm

I agree with tourboi. In my opinion, they've both made significant contributions, so they both deserve a seat at the Broadway table.

It just might be best not to let them sit next to each other.

Or at least take away their knives and forks and make them eat with their spoons.

:)
Updated On: 8/3/08 at 03:43 PM

[myshikobit]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:44pm

Sondheim's music is consistently amazing, and although Webber has some great work ("Evita") that can compete with Sondheim, most of Webber's stuff can't hold a candle to anything Sondheim has written. Commercial success really means nothing. Is it not true that some of the greatest composers and playwrights were not popular or superlative to their peers until long after their time.

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:45pm

Spoons can be dangerous too.

Best seat them on opposite ends. Along with their legions of fans.

[B3TA07]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:47pm

"No. No, you could not. If by affected you mean in terms of money and introducing the term "fangirl/boy" to musical theatre? Sure. What the hell. Webber is Affect-master Flex. If you're thinking in terms of actually inspiring people and bringing a whole new level to the American musical (which I pray to Jesus you are), it's Sondheim. Hands down. "


See? One can argue both sides. And I really don't think Webber's shows are repsonsible for "fangirls." You insult the phans. And by effected I mean who has changed the way people look at theatre the most. Who has changed the way people write theatre the most.

*shrug*

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:50pm

And by effected I mean who has changed the way people look at theatre the most. Who has changed the way people write theatre the most.

Sondheim. No one in the musical world writes music as complex as his. They just... don't. That's not even from a biased standpoint (which many standpoints will be in a debate like this).

[GIZMO2]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:53pm

"Commercial success really means nothing."

Commerical success means bringing necessary $$$$ into the theater community. Ask anyone involved in theater management these days, particularly those working off-Broadway.

Without commercial success, composers like Sondheim wouldn't have the ecnomic freedom to compose, because producers (such as those who provide grant money) wouldn't be around to fund them.

It's the ecosystem of art, the circle of life. In it we have both predators and prey, composers and decomposers.

Whether we like it or not.

Peace.

[SDav 10495]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:57pm

Commercial success really means nothing. Is it not true that some of the greatest composers and playwrights were not popular or superlative to their peers until long after their time.

Well first, I think you mean it IS true... Second, I understand where you're coming from, but the "van Gogh" argument (the famous line about van Gogh being that he never sold a painting during his lifetime, and now he is regarded as one of the masters) doesn't really apply here.

Yes, Webber has inarguably been the more commercially successful of the two, and he will continue to be for years after his death.

But that said, Sondheim isn't exactly the unknown that van Gogh was during his lifetime. While Webber continues to make millions and draw the ire of critics everywhere, Sondheim has had heaps of praise thrown his way--justified, certainly, but it's piled on to an almost embarrassing degree when you consider the man's still alive and there have been tributes to him for decades. Sondheim isn't suffering in obscurity; his work isn't just waiting to be discovered by more enlightened generations. His work will always be appreciated, but it will also, I'm afraid, always enjoy about the same amount of commercial success that it does now.

Sondheim won't catch up to Webber's wads of cash. And that's fine--it just emphasizes that one is not necessarily superior to the other, the way we're always bent on framing this debate during their lifetimes. They just cater to different tastes.

Updated On: 8/3/08 at 03:57 PM

[GIZMO2]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 3:59pm

"Best seat them on opposite ends. Along with their legions of fans."

Omigod! That would be amazing!!!

Can you imagine a piece of theater that would actually do that -- seriously, I mean, beyond FORBIDDEN BROADWAY fare?

I CAN JUST SEE THE PUBLICITY POSTERS NOW:

One table. Two composers. Their respective armies of fans.

Which Side Are You Sitting On?

Find out tonight at the Broadhurst and/or Majestic theaters, because this is one show playing in both.

HA!

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:12pm

Ironically, that was just chilling at the bottom of the page.

He looks pissed.

[Robert Taylor]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:18pm

I doubt if we will get more than five posts supporting Webber...in fact I think that anyone who does will probably be repeatedly bi%ch-slapped verbally.

That said, Webber had more of an impact on forming my love of Broadway so for personal reasons, though I think Sondheim is a more literate and revolutionary composer.

It comes down to this, I think. Webber has had much more of an impact on making Broadway more commercial and more general-public friendly. He made Broadway a "destination" again. Sondheim has had much more of an impact on real Broadway fans, his work speaking to them in ways that seem to speak to them in ways other composers could never imagine.

[Mandi Moo]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:26pm

Sondheim has had much more of an impact on real Broadway fans

So, Webber fans aren't real Broadway fans?

[B3TA07]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:26pm

"He looks pissed."


He wants to know where his ringtone royalties are!!!

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:29pm

Webber fans are every bit as legitimate as Sondheim fans. It's not about who's a "legitimate" composer. They've both worked equally as hard to get where they are. Sondheim has the respect, Webber has the cash.

[Robert Taylor]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:36pm

Uh, if you read my entire post you'll see that I'm in the Webber camp. Of COURSE Webber fans are Broadway dans

I'm just saying that in most Broadway circles Sondheim will be beloved while Webber will be snickered at by many, and you will in the minority for loving him. Look at the first two posts in this thread. Look at the threads about Phantom or Cats.

They both deserve all the recognition they get, but at the end of the day one will have revivals for generations and the other will have episodes devoted to him on "American Idol."

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/3/08 at 4:47pm

but at the end of the day one will have revivals for generations and the other will have episodes devoted to him on "American Idol."

Lmao