The score of Les Miz... — Page 2

Again, tell me how Les Mis is like an opera, aside from the fact that both have singing and minimal dialogue.

And what keeps, say, Phantom of the Opera from being an opera, considering that it also has minimal spoken dialogue? Or RENT, for that matter?

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Updated On: 3/17/09 at 04:31 PM

I always thought that opera is basically a story told through music, whereas a musical is theatre with music. In MT, the theatre takes the top priority--in opera, the music does.

I think of it like this:, in opera, the music conveys the drama for you, whereas in musical theatre you infuse drama into the music through your acting and singing. You know how Colm Wilkinson shouts sometimes during "What Have I Done" to show his anguish? That wouldn't happen in opera because, in opera, the music would "shout" for him.

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Updated On: 3/17/09 at 04:48 PM

A lot of musical scores have that feature. Have you never read the musical analyses of Sweeney Todd and West Side Story?

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But, again, a lot of musicals have themes and musical intricacies like that as well.

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I don't mean that they don't act, it's just... different. Again, I have trouble explaining. :/ Lucia acts in "Il dolce suono" but she doesn't take away from the vocal quality of the piece to do so. In MT you can speak-sing, shout, whisper, etc to convey emotion--in opera, the "integrity" of the voice is the most important.

Though, I disagree--I think that the music conveys her madness. It's very "up and down," very jarring and uneven feeling. The part with "fantasma" especially has the music show her psychosis.

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Updated On: 3/17/09 at 05:04 PM

I think that if you take the classical component away from opera, you can consider anything an opera. So then there really isn't any need to call something musical theatre.

In all musicals, music moves the story along. Except for Spring Awakening, I suppose.

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Not necessarily--a lot of operas have spoken recit.

I looked up people's definitions of opera earlier today in lieu of our conversation, and a lot of them believe that the classical component is necessary to define one.

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I personally find that the people who are saying that opera must be classical for it to be considered an opera are opera purists. People who are persistent that the art form must stay one way and that it can't be done or that it can't evolve to be something else and still stay that art form.

Look at the roots of theatre. Sure, it has gone a long way from being performed on a raked stage out in the open with masks. But, do people complain that what one would see on Broadway isn't theatre because it isn't done in the traditional way? No, they don't, they have embraced the changes over the years to the art form. Something that I feel opera purists are unable to do. They have to realize that the art form must change otherwise it will die.

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Yes, but the difference is is that Jesus Christ Superstar's score is rock for the most part. Not real rock, mostly watered down rock for theatregoers. But, it is still rock none the less. I could see, without a problem, songs from Superstar being played on the radio back when the show was new. The problem is, is that I would have trouble fathoming, in the 80's that a pop radio station would play The Safety Dance after One Day More.

The point that I am trying to make is that a "Popera" has music that is written in a style that is considered to be popular. Something that doesn't happen with Les Miserables but does with Superstar.

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I would still have trouble seeing any song that is part of the Les Miserables score being played on the radio back in the day.

Both my father and I are big classic rock fans and fans of rock that came out of that time period. In fact, my dad's views on Superstar when he herd me listening to it one day was that he felt that they (Webber) had to sugarcoat the rock sound for theatre audiences. He remembers going to see The Who's Tommy on Broadway. Keep in mind that if there ever was a "concept album" for a show (which is a phraise I hate using for Tommy because they jus took the story on the original album that came out in 69 and put it on stage. But, I digress. He was saying hat he had felt that the new orchestrations totally changed the sound of the music and made it more of a light rock and roll sound, rather then the typical loud rock sound that The Who is known for. That lead us into a long conversation about Rock in musical theatre ( a topic that I was surprised that he knew more about then I, due to the fact that when it comes to anything musical or theatre realted he turns to me for info). We had agreed that the first musical to use real rock music was Hair.

The last time I was at The Met was when I did the rush line for La Rondine. I remember, when we got to the box office, they had a TV showing clips of different operas that they were producing that season. One of them was Taymore's production of The Magic Fluit. An elderly gentleman standing behind me in line saw that and said that that was something that didn't belong at The Met, and that it was more apporpriate for Broadway then at The Met. The elderly woman that he was with said that they have to change. If they don't make opera more accessable for the younger generation then it will die out. She commented that people like us ( elderly people who enjoy tridational operas) can't last forever and she commented that she thought that the art form was changing for the better and that she disagreed with him. I commented during this conversation that I agreed with her more then him. And, that got into a friendly debate.

When I was there earlier for a performance of Boheme, I remember talking to a guy in his forties who clearly wasn't that old. He was surprised that someone my age was at the opera and was enjoying what they were seeing. We talked about how it is changing and he agreed with me that it was a good thing. He pointed out that there are subtle changes all around. Singers having to look the part etc, and having to actually act rather then just strut around the stage and just stand there and sing.

I can see that there are people who feel that they don't want the art form to change and rathe that it simply die out. However, I find that if people are in fact like that then I would consider them to be ignorant and stubborn.

As for rock music in musical theatre, I just listened to bits of Superstar (something that I hadn't listened to in a VERY long time) prior to making this post. And I feel that it isn't real rock. It is rock however, it is non tridatonal rock. I feel like if they used more of a tridational rock sound at that time, then they wouldn't have been able to sell tickets and make it accessable for older people. I guess, it is all a matter of opinion and might not be something that you and I see eye to eye, Spork. Ah well, such is life.

I remember reading an article when Rent came to Broadway with Pascal and he was talking about how Rent is the first real rock musical in a long time. He did comment about Tommy. But, he said, that he felt that they sugarcoated the sound with the new orchastrations and that pervented it from haiving the hard rock edge that the original album has. This is a statment that I agree with after having listened to The Who perform the work. Two albums that I have have the opera being done live and one is the studio recording. Both of which have a much different sound then the Broadway show. I do feel that if they wanted to, they could have kept the same orchestrations that the band used originally and used them on Broadway without a problem.

Also, one last thing that I would like to add Spork, is this. I don't see how changing the kind of music that is used in an opera is going to get in the way of the musical intagrity. Keep in mind, it was mentioned here earlier in the thread, that tirdational operas were wirtten useing the popular music of their time. What would drastically change the art form if people started writing them with pouplar music of this time?

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Updated On: 3/18/09 at 01:34 PM

Perhaps the Youtube poster was being deliberately stupid?

Howard Goodall did a perceptive analysis of the difference between musical theatre and opera in his TV series by writing the same scene in both a musical style and an operatic style. This was then performed by the same cast on the same set and gave what, to me at least, was the best illustration of the difference between the two genres.