The score of Les Miz...

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:32pm

I am not a fan of this show or score at all. But how how would you classify the score, what style is it? Someone wrote this on a Youtube comment, and I think it's pretty far off

regarding Les Mis
Well, I guess I need to know hwo you define pop. The play is an opera. Its not a "Pop"era like Hairspray and Wicked. All the songs are written in classical opera style.

Thoughts?

[philly03]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:37pm

I always thought the creators of Les Mis had pushed the idea that this WAS a "pop opera" and somehow thought of it as pop music -- obviously in a light sense of the word pop/ular (I suppose by popular composition of the music for the theatre? Not literal 'Pop' music).

[Pianolin717]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:39pm

ok, well this isn't Les Miz but Hairspray and Wicked are not Poperas... lol

[BustopherPhantom]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:40pm

I think the score is a kind of style mash: it's somewhat-Weill, somewhat-classical, somewhat-a bunch of other things.

But it most definitely is a "pop"-ra (even though I hate that term). The score is created to please the widest-possible demo, so it's pop.

Updated On: 3/16/09 at 05:40 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:42pm

Ok. I thought it was a pop opera, lol. I don't know what that person is talking about.

In my opinion, scores like A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and SWEENEY TODD are the closest we get to actual classical/opera style.
Updated On: 3/16/09 at 05:42 PM

[Pianolin717]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:52pm

don't forget The Light In The Piazza!! now THAT is really close to classical/opera style

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 5:56pm

I wonder how that person determined Harispray and Wicked were Pop-eras. "Pop-era" is a term that was coined for sung-through shows that did not feature rock music (as Jesus Christ Superstar and Tommy were already dubbed "Rock Operas"). Whoever wrote that comment on Youtube is pretty ignorant about musicals and operas if they believe the Les Miserables score was written in the style of classical opera. My guess is they are teen newbies to musical theatre. I think the closest musical theatre has come to opera is perhaps Sweeney Todd, Candide and possibly The Most Happy Fella.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 6:01pm

Yeah, I forgot CANDIDE.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 6:14pm

I was thinking about Light in the Piazza, which has some operatic moments, but I didn't feel the show as a whole was operatic in scale, which is why I mentioned The Most Happy Fella. The score may have its typical Broadway songs, but the show itself has so many operatic elements to it. I'll never forget the Italian trio of men. *sigh* And My Heart is So Full of You. It's one of Broadway's most perfect (and underrated) musicals. I don't know why Lincoln Center hasn't given us a full-scale revival of this incredible show.

[Pianolin717]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 6:20pm

And isn't Candide often referred to as an Operetta?

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 6:24pm

LES MIS is a Pop Opera.

[Byron Abens]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 6:51pm

"I think the closest musical theatre has come to opera is perhaps Sweeney Todd, Candide and possibly The Most Happy Fella"

Don't forget Porgy and Bess, as well as Street Scene, both of which were written for, and premiered on, Broadway, which, believe it or not, does contribute to wether or not a piece is initially considered an opera or a musical. Either of those, along with Sweeney, could have easily premiered in an opera house and immediately become "modern" American opera, rather than waiting to first become "cross-over" pieces.

Show Boat and certain entries from the Rodgers and Hammerstein canon are also now considered to be part of the operatic repertoire, along with West Side Story, and do not cause too much of a stir when included in an opera company's season.

Will Les Mis eventually become accepted as such as well? I wouldn't rule it out completely, but only time will tell.

[musikman]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 7:03pm

Well, an opera is any work that is completely sung-through. Les Miz, with a few brief exceptions, is completely sung-through.

When most people think of opera though, Les Mis doesn't exactly pop into mind.

HOwever, what did make me laugh was when that youtube poster said that the music was written in a classical opera style. The only thing that comes remotely even close to that is some of what Cosette sings, and even then, that's really pushing it.

Also, in terms of the cross-pver musicals, let's not forget that a few of Gian Carlo Menotti's operas played Broadway.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 10:47pm

No, that is not how you define an opera. A lot of operas have spoken dialogue.

Les Mis is not opera. And I really, really dislike the term "pop opera."

[Byron Abens]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 11:25pm

The most basic definition, and really only definition that covers everything we call opera in these days, is a drama, either tragic or comic, in which music is an essential element, and is wholly or mostly sung.

Les Mis fits pretty much any definition of opera you can throw at it. What ultimately makes it a musical and not an opera? As I said before, it's where it premiered. Had it premiered at the Paris Opera rather than the Palais des Sport, or Covent Garden instead of the RSC, then you could potentially have seen it someday at the Met alongside Doctor Atomic and other modern operas.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 11:28pm

Les Mis isn't in the style of an opera, musically. It's hard to explain the musical differences between opera and MT, but they do exist.

[Byron Abens]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 11:41pm

That still doesn't hold, as opera has evolved over its existence.

Compare Monteverdi's The Coronation of Poppea to Bizet's Carmen, to Berg's Lulu and then try to tell me that there is a "style" that opera must follow musically.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/16/09 at 11:47pm

Even modern opera, it's just the style of singing and the way the drama is more in the music than in the acting.

Also, the way vowels are shaped by the singer.

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 12:18am

...

LES MIS is a Pop Opera.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 4:02am

The music in LES MIZ is too classical to be "pop" - you would never hear those songs on radio outside of stations playing easy listening/show tunes.

I think it is closest to accessible modern opera and always felt that after all the commercial runs we would see the show on stage at the New York City Opera, where it would not be wildly out of place.

I could not see NYCO pulling off DREAMGUIRLS or SUPERSTAR, but shows like LES MIZ would fit in there.

Updated On: 3/17/09 at 04:02 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 10:30am

Don't forget Porgy and Bess, as well as Street Scene, both of which were written for, and premiered on, Broadway, which, believe it or not, does contribute to wether or not a piece is initially considered an opera or a musical.

I can't believe I forgot those! Two of Broadway's biggest contributions to the world of opera. And though it didn't premiere on Broadway, Jerry Springer: The Opera should not be overlooked. It may not be to everyone's liking, but it definitely has its operatic moments. That is a huge score with some really tough vocals.

[musikman]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 12:14pm

Spork Goddess, I apologize, and let me clarify and expand upon what I wrote.

Sure, there are operas that include dialogue such as the Magic Flute and Carmen. In these cases, the dialogue is there in place of the recitative. HOwever, once we start getting into things like the Merry Widow, or Die Fledermaus, many of Offenbach's, and even Gilbert and Sullivan, which all have lots of dialogue, we start getting into Operetta/Light Opera land.

PLease don't shoot me for this, btu I looked up the definition of opera, and this is what it gave me:

an extended dramatic composition, in which all parts are sung to instrumental accompaniment, that usually includes arias, choruses, and recitatives, and that sometimes includes ballet.

And here's another one:

A drama, either tragic or comic, of which music forms an essential part; a drama wholly or mostly sung, consisting of recitative, arials, choruses, duets, trios, etc., with orchestral accompaniment, preludes, and interludes, together with appropriate costumes, scenery, and action; a lyric drama.


In terms of Les Miz, for all intents and purposes, it lends itself perfectly to this definition....minus the whole ballet bit. However, it's musical style and needs is obviously not that of opera, and its relation to classical music and technique. One does not need a classically trained voice to sing the score of Les Miz (although it couldn't hurt due to the stamina issues of singing that score 8 times a week), but it doesn't mean it's not an "opera."

Also, when people call it a pop opera, it's not that we're equating it with some of the stuff they have on the radio today, but more of a way of saying it's more accessible and more well known to the general public than say ohhh a production of Ernani, or Don Pasquale, or even the more famous Verdi or Puccini operas.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 12:17pm

Fair enough. I still disagree, though--I've always learned that opera is defined by the way the score is sung--without amplification, shaping the vowels a certain way, using vibrato a certain way, etc. But everyone argues over the difference, so it's certainly not set in stone.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 12:28pm

Remember too that opera and concert music were the pop music styles of their eras. Technically Verdi's AIDA was a Pop Opera in its day.

[winston89]

Posted: 3/17/09 at 4:20pm

SporkGoddess, so based on how you define what an opera is, anything that is put on at NYCO can't be an opera because they mic their singers right?

I would consider Les Miserables to be an opera. Sure it is more of a modern opera compared to anything written by Puccini. But, it still follows the the basic definition of what an opera is.

Also spork, based upon the definition you gave out you give off the impression that an opera is only something that can be in the classical style of music, considering that there isn't any other style of music that has the singers or the musicians perform without any microphones.