What did you think of Sunset Boulevard (1994)? - Page 4

[newintown]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 4:49pm

Although I can think of hundreds of examples of awful lyrics in ALW shows, I can't think of one good one.

However, he seems to have hit upon a terrible truth that the masses don't care if lyrics are good or bad (or even worse, that the masses prefer bad lyrics).

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 5:21pm

I don't mean to make this the "Let's trash ALW thread", but, honestly, the way he sets lyrics, newintown, I doubt many in the audience can actually understand them.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 5:27pm

Obviously, the masses seek out bad lyrics before they buy tickets to a show. But if they preferred good lyrics, they would be the majority and to whom would we feel superior? Can you imagine how GHASTLY it would be if we couldn't refer to those who are inferior as "the masses"?

[ChenoKahn]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 5:27pm

I don't think Lloyd Webber wrote the lyrics.

[Jimbob2]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 5:59pm

'Nothing Like You've Ever Known' in the original version sung by Marti Webb on the 'Tell Me On A Sunday' album is a really good match of lyric, musical setting, and performance. Just one example, but there's the one. However, I've walked into your bear trap. Let's get back to this really good thread's topic, and not get sidetracked with a tired bitch fest on ALW. Yawn.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 6:38pm

I don't think Lloyd Webber wrote the lyrics.

Of course he didn't. But he is the "muscle" on his shows (at least since the collaboration with Rice ended), so let's don't pretend there's a word spoken or sung that ALW hasn't approved.

But if you need additional evidence, notice that we are talking about lyric patterns that are virtually identical through several collaborators. Who's the common denominator here?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 6:42pm

Jimbob, I saw Marti Webb in London when she was the matinee Evita for Elaine Paige. She remains one of my favorite Evas of all time. I know it's heresy, but I actually thought the show made more sense with her than with Patti LuPone (whom I had just seen in NYC).

There. Does that change the topic enough for you? :)

[Jimbob2]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 7:27pm

:) She's got good phrasing [Webb], and enough mix of musical theatre chops and pop understanding to sing that role and other ALW work with fluidity.

People probably know this anecdote but:
A much disliked lyric (mentioned above in the thread) re. 'platinum blonde bitch / Own so many apartments I've forgotten which is which' was an indulgence on the part of Don Black. He overheard ALW getting confused while on the phone to one of his homes, and the location of something or other within the place. So someone having the luxury of apartments and yet never being able to find the light switch got carried into a lyric. Perhaps not worth the in-joke, as Norma is surely down to her last mansion by the time of the action, and doesn't seem to have been outside for years. Then again, she's showing off, and is ever the self-deceiver.

Re. Amy Powers' input mentioned above; a version of 'With One Look' called 'Just One Look' is on video sharing sites. It's from the first Sydmonton workshop. While no lines survive into the current version of that song (and had gone by Sydmonton workshop 2 - as had Powers), perhaps her vestigial work is in song placement and dramatic conceit for those numbers. Not an insubstantial contribution, even if few of her words remain. [I'm not sure how few/many do on other songs]

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 8:05pm

Thanks for the update on Powers, Jimbob. I was writing entirely from memory based on a NEW YORKER article (I think) from 20 years ago. I really had no idea how much of her work they kept. (And not being a fan of either lyric, I can't say I considered the whole episode a tragedy.)

But I am curious and I appreciate the info.

Updated On: 6/18/12 at 08:05 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 8:19pm

The thing with ALW is he takes over every aspect of his musical--at least that's my impression. He often chooses to work with student lyrists--I think on purpose (though that doesn't excuse Hampton--or Black). I disagree with Gaveston in that I think he *can* set a lyric--the way he set Cats is often amazing I think.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 9:51pm

Where did I say "can't"? I think ALW's work with Tim Rice, while not in the same league as the great musical composers, is at least more varied.

What I said was that post-Rice (and, if you like, post-CATS), ALW approves every aspect of his productions. And when the same lyric patterns appear in show after show, ALW is the common denominator.

Updated On: 6/18/12 at 09:51 PM

[My Oh My]

Posted: 6/18/12 at 10:29pm

Newintown reminds me of me when I bemoan the public's utter ignorance of anything orchestration. Not to mention, the lack of interest, which is stunning to me, you know, being a lover of MUSICALS and all, hehe.

I bring that up because I always hope to awaken someone's senses toward the much neglected art of "dressing up a melody," giving it character, giving a song musical subtext, and so on...so Newintown's assertion has had me thinking lyrics every time I play music lately.

Not that I feel I should because I see myself as one of those "masses" that don't give a hooey. I do listen to and very much care about quality lyric writing but i admit my overall knowledge of that art isn't as thorough as I'd like. I can certainly recognize a great lyric and can easily spot mediocre ones. The problem is it doesn't always translate to my conscious like it would someone who has vast knowledge on the discipline/process. Instead, it nudges at my subconscious enough that someone's dislike of it wouldn't surprise me, but at the same time, would come to the realization I hadn't thought of it before, even if it always bugged me. Yep, musical theatre is serious business to moi.

Eeek. Went all Dr. Joyce Brothers on y'all. Hate it when dat happens. :S

[newintown]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 9:38am

Makes perfect sense, My Oh My, but I think there's a good and large middle ground between knowing as much about the technique of writing lyrics as Sondheim, and thinking that "theme" and "thing" are a good rhyme; and in that middle ground, it's possible to really care about the quality of a musical's words.

I love music (I'm on the same boat as you regarding mass ignorance of and disinterest in orchestration), but I also love good lyrics and books. And that may be why I find the ALW oeuvre so bland - he admits to preferring the "bookless" musical. And the bulk of the lyrics he chooses to set display the skill, depth, and sophistication of Mother Goose. Including (to bring it back to this thread), those of Sunset Boulevard (as quoted on a previous page).

Updated On: 6/19/12 at 09:38 AM

[castlestreet]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 10:23am

I've said it once, and I'll say it again- I agree that there are many lyrics in Webber shows that are not great lyrics. That being said- when Sondheim stretches to make a lyric rhyme its brilliant- and when a Webber lyricist does it "it's crap".

I happen to find the lyrics to Sunset Blvd. to be just fine- not earth shattering, but they serve the purpose just fine.

[newintown]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 10:26am

Maybe so; but when someone sets out to adapt a truly great movie (or book), I hope for more from the libretto than "just fine," (that is, in "fine's" current usage, meaning "acceptable").

[castlestreet]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 10:30am

I actually find many of the lyrics in Sunset to be quite moving- in fact so many of them are practically lifted right off the silver screen. So maybe my use of the word "fine" was too soft.

Of all of his shows, this was one where I truly don't think lyrics were the big problem.

I've always felt that this show's biggest problems were that it simply could not live up to its own hype and it is a show that depends VERY much on who gets cast as Norma. One of the only shows that I can think of that hinges that much on the leading lady's casting is Gypsy. If you get stuck with a Norma who can't pull the part off and truly emit "Star Quality" (to steal from Evita) than the show simply doesn't work.

[Jimbob2]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 11:31am

Anyone else, like me, who didn't see the film until after hearing the CD or seeing the musical? My feelings as I watched certain film scenes were 'wow,is that all? It's so good they expanded that moment at the point where it needs to sing'. "The Lady's Paying" is the main example I remember. Of course there's a lot to be said for economy and restraint (i.e the unexpanded film scenes) but if you're going to musicalize it, I like a lot of the choices. which is to saying nothing against the film btw. It may not be a radical retelling (from the angle of the Chimp, for instance), but I think there's a lot of good stuff going on and a very different experience from the film

On lyrics I prefer them to be deft, but not draw attention to themselves too obviously. So, clunkers of course run up a distress flag, just as "look at me! Did you see what I did there?" lyrics take me out of the moment and character. That middle ground isn't easy.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 5:28pm

To answer the complaint that Sondheim is forgiven for sins condemned in others, the difference with Sondheim is that he makes complex lyrics a part of the fabric of an entire musical. He doesn't just throw in a trick rhyme here or there because he happens to think of one. (And post-INTO THE WOODS, he has increasingly eschewed complex rhyming altogether.)

(I will allow that "is personable/coercin' a bull" is an unfortunate exception to the above.)

That's quite different from suddenly deciding a rhyme must be found for "devil take the hindmost" and only coming close.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 5:41pm

"One of the many cases of a musical that takes golden source material and turns it into dung."

Seriously? Golden source material?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 5:55pm

Golden source material: Billy Wilder's SUNSET BOULEVARD is often listed among the greatest films of all time.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 6:04pm

Oye, you can make a musical about Citizen Kane but it doesn't mean it is good subject matter for a musical. I wouldn't be shocked if someone tried btw.

Updated On: 6/19/12 at 06:04 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 7:39pm

^^^^finebydesign, you are absolutely right that source material may be great in its own right and yet prove to be poor raw product for musical adaptation. Billy Wilder himself talked Sondheim out of adapting SUNSET BOULEVARD. (If only Wilder had worked the same magic on Jule Styne and Bob Merrill before SUGAR!)

But I took the OP's remark to merely refer to the quality of the source material per se, not necessarily whether it was an inherently good source for musical adaptation.

Personally, I see no reason why it shouldn't have been adapted; I just don't think much imagination was brought to the process. Merely converting a screenplay into rhymed couplets and extending a few scenes is not to re-conceive the material as Prince & Co. did with NIGHT MUSIC.

But Billy Wilder was almost certainly right that the underlying story tends toward the operatic, which may be why Glenn Close chose to play the role with her tongue so firmly in her cheek.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 7:50pm

Well to me it's just not a "big" enough arc for a musical and certainly not enough to even plot. Opera makes sense and obviously a straight play. As far as I recall nothing really happens, there are certainly moments that make nice song moments but rare is a moment where someone needs to sing to move the "story" along.

Again, you can make a musical out of anything. I guess this may have been improved ala Grey Gardens with some backstory scenes... but it's such boring premise for a musical.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 7:50pm

Well to me it's just not a "big" enough arc for a musical and certainly not enough to even plot. Opera makes sense and obviously a straight play. As far as I recall nothing really happens, there are certainly moments that make nice song moments but rare is a moment where someone needs to sing to move the "story" along.

Again, you can make a musical out of anything. I guess this may have been improved ala Grey Gardens with some backstory scenes... but it's such boring premise for a musical.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/19/12 at 8:53pm

I think there's quite a bit of plot in SUNSET BOULEVARD. It certainly isn't a narrative that would make an R&H-style show (no second couple subplot, for one thing), but there are many events that show Joe being drawn farther into Norma's world while at the same time being pulled away by Betty.

But I think Billy Wilder had a point in that the plot events are so over-the-top--the funeral for a dead monkey (which I found rather touching in the musical, BTW); Norma's suicide attempt; the painful return to Paramount; and everything about Norma's delusion that she can make a comeback playing a teen-age Salome--that the source material automatically puts us in the realm of grand opera, where such things can be dramatized without being laughable.

If, however, your point was that while the characters are oversized, they are relatively few in number, then I agree. It's a strange piece with larger-than-life people trapped in what is a chamber-opera sized tale.

Still, ALW's poperettas are influenced by opera, so I don't necessarily think it was a bad idea for him; I just don't think much creativity was brought to the adaptation. To me, it was merely the screenplay converted to rhymed couplets and performed live.