What's with all the N2N hate?- Page 3

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 4:42pm

I can't even figure out if Gabe is a delusion or a hallucination. They keep emphasizing Diana's delusions, but she interacts with him as though he were a hallucination. Unless he symbolizes her belief that he is still alive (which would make more sense given that that visual hallucinations are highly uncommon).

Also, I think if anyone aside from Diana is on the brink of mental illness by the end of the show, it's Natalie. Her genetic predisposition, apparent emotional dysregulation, exposure to extreme life stressors, and the drug use probably didn't help either.

[AC126748]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 4:50pm

It's hard to have a full discussion of what's wrong with this show on an Internet message board, but there are certainly more than a few things not to like. The musical's attitude towards anti-depressant medication and psychiatry in general could come straight out of a Scientology handbook. The show has major tone issues that aren't resolved; why, for example, is Gabe played like an evil spirit when he's supposedly the family's savior? And much of the music is derivative, and the lyrics pedestrian at best (Who's crazy? / The husband or wife? / Who's crazy / To live their whole life...).

I would have had no problem with Next to Normal taking last year's Tony for Best Musical. It's well-performed and has its moments. But the Pulitzer? An award that was bestowed on Long Day's Journey Into Night, Death of a Salesman, Fences, Streetcar? One of these things is not like the other...

Updated On: 4/13/10 at 04:50 PM

[taylorPHENOMENON2]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 4:57pm

My problem is with some of the crazy ass fans I've encountered.

[hannah_bway]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 4:59pm

I like the show. A lot. I thought it was interesting and told its story in a way that was entertaining while still being emotional, if slightly over the top. Some of the lyrics are too "kindergarten rhyme time" for my taste, but overall I thought it was solid. It may not be the most deserving of a Pulitzer, but I don't believe that makes it totally undeserving.

[rmusic11322]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 4:59pm

Since nobody seemed crazy when I went to the stage door during my only time seeing the show, can someone tell me what a typical N2N fanatic looks like or does?

[hannah_bway]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 5:08pm

^ I don't know about typical but when I was there last month (my second time seeing the show - the first time I didn't stage door because I was with some friends who had a train to catch), there were a couple of girls in particular who were acting really BFF-y with some of the cast. I got the feeling that they were there a lot - like, a whole lot. It wasn't anything that would make me go "Whoa, what a psycho!" but it was a little bit "This is quite odd."
Updated On: 4/13/10 at 05:08 PM

[steven22]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 5:10pm

I happen to love N2N
It's one of my favorite shows and have seen it 4 times and plan on returning again in the near future

[BwayTday]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 6:05pm

I love next to normal. I like the score and the story. Like someone else said, the way it is handled makes so it isn't a movie of the week, and the ending, however sad, seems to give the message of healing.

SPOILER****

Gabe is played as menacing because his death is the trigger of Diana's disease which is part of the thing, along with grief, that tears the family apart. The scene with Gabe came off as Dan finally excepting his sadness towards losing him.


****SPOILER

Even though some of the lyrics are a little off, I thing there are a lot of really brilliant moments in the lyrics.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 6:07pm

The musical's attitude towards anti-depressant medication and psychiatry in general could come straight out of a Scientology handbook.

Except that the musical is never at any point anti-psychiatry. If anything, they take a pro-psychiatry stance. The musical is very clear ("You have a chronic condition, like diabetes or hypertension. When left untreated, the results could be catastrophic.") that Diana's ultimate decision is not necessarily the right one. Never at any point do they glorify her choice. By the show's finale, it's entirely possible, and hinted at, that she has in fact returned to treatment.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 6:14pm

I wholeheartedly agree with you (again) Adamgreer. She doesn't know if it's the right choice, Natalie doesn't agree ("you can't just walk out on your therapist"!), DAN certainly doesn't agree, nor does the doctor. WE don't know if it was the right choice...it is just the one she has made.

She has been TRYING everything else...and none of it worked long term.

Whoever said Gabe was a SAVIOR? He has to be a bit sinister as "he" taunts her to suicide.

[Craww]

Posted: 4/13/10 at 6:22pm

I never knew so many people took the choices of the protagonist to automatically be the overarching message of the show itself. Haven't we ever heard of the Unreliable Narrator?

It never occurred to me that Diana giving up on treatment was a tacit promotion for others to do the same. I just can't get behind the idea that the story should have been constructed to be responsible above all else.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/14/10 at 12:44pm

I disagree, adamgreer. I think the first act in particular has the suggestion that the goal of the treatment is to oppress Diana. When Diana finally tells the doctor she feels nothing, he has a line that the treatment was successful, or should be continued- whatever the comment, it's been over a year since I last saw it.

Yes, the show isn't responsible for the medical decisions of their audience members (though based on some of those overnight rush YouTube videos, more than a few fans are off their meds...), but with I Miss the Mountains saying that medication makes her dead inside and unable to enjoy life, it does have anti-psychiatry implications.

[hannah_bway]

Posted: 4/14/10 at 12:50pm

...but with I Miss the Mountains saying that medication makes her dead inside and unable to enjoy life, it does have anti-psychiatry implications.

I agree with that, but I don't think that the audience was supposed to necessarily agree with Diana's decision to leave treatment. I felt that Diana represented one extreme (no medication whatsoever), and the doctors represented another (constant barrage of medication and new treatments).

[newintown]

Posted: 4/14/10 at 12:56pm

I found "I Miss The Mountains" really distasteful. I felt that the song distinctly sympathizes with the point of view many sufferers espouse. I was close to someone for many years who used a similar phrase ("I miss my highs") to justify going off her medication. What she didn't want to acknowledge was that she made life hell for everyone around her when she did go off her medication. To her, her enjoyment was more important than the torment she caused those around her.

It's a sad, sad thing that bi-polar sufferers have to choose between a level existence or causing pain to family and friends. But it's a clear choice that has to be made. And, after going through it, I can't sympathize with someone who wants to make the selfish choice, I'm afraid.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 5:58am

Newintown, as someone who does have a mood disorder and has symptoms of bipolar I do find that comment to be rather distasteful and rather offensive. You make it sound like people who do have a mood disorder act that way by choice and therefor since they act that way by virtues of it being a choice, then that is one that you can't support. I really don't know which part of your post to correct first, so I am just not going to bother.


I personally never thought that this show took a stand one way or the other with regards to psychoanalysis and the meds that go with it. I found it to be great that they never pushed Diana one way or the other or told the audience what is right and what is wrong. That they simply laid out the options and offered their suggestions and left things at that.

I ended up taking my parents to see the the show. My dad, works in the field of learning issues as does my mother. He has a clinic that helps kids out who are struggling in school and as a result has seen tons of teenagers who are either, A overly medicated or B medicated for either the wrong thing or wrongfully on meds to begin with. He himself as a professional thought that the story was very accurate.

I personally loved the fact that they never tell you what Diana has. I think that is great. Yes, people have inferred That she is bipolar. But, never in the show does it say it and I think that is a very great thing.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 6:08am

So because their behavior is uncomfortable for YOU, they need to be medicated??? They need to be/feel numb and removed? Oy. I know it's not easy -- but it's not thier job to make YOUR life easier.

I LOVE "I Miss the Mountains" as it tries to explain WHY so many people on meds DO choose to go off them. Diana is certainly NOT the first person (I know she's not real) to choose to go off their meds!

And the doctor states: "Patient stable." after Diana stating she feels nothing. It may not be pleasant, but it is real. THIS is the moment that doctors can deal with the problems -- while the emotions are not running amok. Then the mind is more calm and rational.

[Elphaba3]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 6:15am

Winston, Diana does say that she was diagnosed bipolar about 16 years ago. For what it's worth, I've told a few mental health professionals about the show and they all think it sounds pretty cool.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 7:02am

Elphaba, I have always viewed that scene differently. I have looked at it as her former therapist told her that she was bipolar, however, she herself wasn't sure if they were right. I do think that Madden's response to that comment is a great one. He says something like often times all that can be done is to treat the symptoms rather then finding a diagnosis.

This is something I agree with. Personally speaking, I did go to one psychopharmacologist who was convinced I had bipolar. However, when my regular therapist heard that, she wasn't sure that was the case and she disagreed with that. I then went to another one that said that you can have a mood disorder without having to be labeled and put into a tiny box. Like, it is possible for someone (once again speaking based upon personal experience here) to have a few of the symptoms that are associated with bipolar without actually being bipolar yourself.

[newintown]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 9:28am

Winston and dramamama, if it were only as simple as you paint it, there would be no problem.

Winston, you say You make it sound like people who do have a mood disorder act that way by choice. No, I said that the person in my family went off her medication by choice. Very different thing.

Dramamama, you say So because their behavior is uncomfortable for YOU, they need to be medicated? To diminish the torment caused to family and friends as merely "uncomfortable" was a tactic employed by this same person to justify going off her medication. The rest of us would not have settled for the word "uncomfortable." "Uncomfortable" doesn't affect your life quite the same way as what we're discussing.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 10:14am

Newintown,

You have to understand that the meds can toy with someone's moods in a way that is both hard to describe as well as something that is hard to deal with altogether. You make it sound like the person's mindset was "screw this, I don't care about anyone and I am going to stop taking the pills regardless of anyone else." That is simply not the case.

In most cases when someone stops taking their meds, they are doing it out of a place of anger and frustration that are feelings that are associated with the mood disorder. There are tons of people who do have mood disorders who are frustrated with being told to take this pill and that and hate how it toys with their moods and emotions. For me, this whole thing is a been there done that type situation. I speak from personal experience so I don't want you to think that I am just throwing random stuff out there.

Someone stopping their meds for any amount of time is not at all a selfish thing like you make it out to be, instead it is another part of their mood disorder that one should help the person who's doing this rather then turn them away or say that they aren't caring about others in the process.

Also, just to add something here. Oftentimes, people with mood disorders have trouble making clear decisions and can be known for acting on impulse and doing things impulsively, like stopping meds, without thinking things all the way through.

Updated On: 4/15/10 at 10:14 AM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 1:17pm

Actually, studies have shown that most (80% of the sample studied) bipolar patients stop taking their medication not because of side effects, but because they "don't think they need it."

In order to diagnose Diana as bipolar, you would need to rule out major depressive disorder with psychotic features and schizoaffective disorder. I don't think she meets criteria for schizophrenia because she doesn't have the disorganized thinking or behavioral/cognitive deficits.

Btw, Winston, what you're referring to is Mood Disorder NOS. That would be a possible diagnosis if Diana didn't meet criteria for bipolar, but she pretty much does from what the show tells us.

Edit: Jeez, that had a lot of typos.

Updated On: 4/15/10 at 01:17 PM

[Marquise]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 1:46pm

In most cases when someone stops taking their meds, they are doing it out of a place of anger and frustration that are feelings that are associated with the mood disorder. There are tons of people who do have mood disorders who are frustrated with being told to take this pill and that and hate how it toys with their moods and emotions.

Well to be honest someone diagnosed with having a mood disorder shouldn't get upset about "being told" to take their medication. The people asking them to follow through with taking their medication is really only looking out for them and want them to get better. The medication was prescribed for a reason, no? It was prescribed to moderate their mood swings, no? Then if the person in question wants to get better why are they fighting it to begin with?

Going off prescribed medication on one's own is just senseless unless the person wants to seek alternative treatments. But to simply go off the meds by their own recourse and then do nothing else about it, especially someone who suffers from bi-polar disorder is again, senseless and potentially deadly.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 1:55pm

Bipolar involves impulsivity and acting in an irresponsible and potentially reckless manner. Medication noncompliance is part of the disorder that they have.

That's a problem I have with N2N--assuming he is familiar with her condition, Dan should have been watching her more closely, and her doctor should have considered the possibility that she went off of her meds.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 2:06pm

Marquise, I was pretty much going to say what Spork said. Her post was my initial reaction to what you wrote. Yes, impulsive actions are part of being bipolar or having a mod disorder in general. And, you're right, meds are given for a particular reason and it is in the patient's best interest to take them. However, I guess the best way to describe someone with a mood disorder not taking their meds is that they are cutting off their nose despite their face.

[binau]

Posted: 4/15/10 at 2:11pm

"I personally never thought that this show took a stand one way or the other with regards to psychoanalysis and the meds"

Youre about 40 years too late with Psychoanalysis commentary (see: Anyone Can Whistle).