Posted: 8/18/18 at 9:56am
10086sunset said: "Raitt, there’s no question about it.
I happen to also like Sinatra’s recording."
I agree with every single word.
Posted: 8/18/18 at 10:37am
Posted: 8/18/18 at 11:06am
I would think the latter. It would probably have been as vacant, lazy and contemptuous of the material as Sinatra was with everything he did. Great instrument, zero effort. The movie is a botch, starting from its opening seconds, but I don't know that Sinatra's presence would have improved matters.
Posted: 8/18/18 at 3:04pm
Posted: 8/18/18 at 4:30pm
I've only seen 2 performances of Soliloquy in my life (Nathan Gunn at his solo show in San Diego back in June and Joshua Henry in Carousel) and both are amazing. Looking back I wish they had Joshua sing Soliloquy at the Tony's! Ah!
Anyway here's the video of Nathan Gunn singing Soliloquy in Lincoln Center.
Posted: 8/18/18 at 4:36pm
Posted: 8/18/18 at 4:48pm
Posted: 8/18/18 at 5:13pm
It's just my personal taste, but ... pretty much everything, darquegk. I find that because he was blessed with such a great voice, a smug, self-satisfied quality sets into his performances. There are very few things where I think he's connecting with whatever it is he's singing. I also hate the way he has no regard for lyrics, often making nonsense out of them with his "improvements." One lazy performance of his of a Rodgers and Hart song made me so mad, I almost drove off the road. He's very good in The Manchurian Candidate - maybe John Frankenheimer cracked the whip on that one to get a performance out of him.
Posted: 8/18/18 at 7:41pm
Posted: 8/18/18 at 9:04pm
Posted: 8/18/18 at 11:53pm
Taylor Mac in A 24 Decade History of Popular Music
Posted: 8/19/18 at 12:40am
darquegk said: "I suppose I can both agree with you and disagree. Sinatra could not usually act to save his life, and his work as a song interpreter was always either superlative, or contemptuous. I happen to believe that on the albums where he was feeling the same thing as the music, he was brilliant. But there are no mediocre Sinatra albums: only phenomenal ones, and dreck."
I recognize that Sinatra had enormous talent (and influence), but I tend to agree with you and Smaxie. The exception for me is the Capitol Records' recordings, when the young Sinatra could sing gently or powerfully and be equally convincing even with some mediocre material. (Frankly, I think his voice was too light-weight for "Soliloquy". It's not a song for crooners.)
But I never forgave him for his contempt for lyrics and lyricists. I'm glad he made a lot of money for Kander & Ebb, but simply repeating phrases aimlessly on "New York, New York" was unforgivable.
Posted: 8/19/18 at 2:07am
ANewBrainn said: "Taylor Mac in A 24 Decade History of Popular Music"
When I saw this question, i had the rare urge to respond and say exactly this. wish there were video. its is a transformational experience to watch judy sing this song - have seen it during 12 hour and 24 hour version - and has me in tears every time.
Posted: 8/19/18 at 2:16pm
Sinatra was one of the first to record the song in 1946. He recorded it twice more in studio and there are at least two live recordings.
He frequently sang it in concert, introducing it with almost reverential respect as this wonderful piece of music by Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II and then setting the scene for the audience. He also sang it on his weekly radio show and on television specials.
For better or worse, more people were probably introduced to the song by Sinatra than by any actor who played the role.
Posted: 8/19/18 at 2:39pm
I recognize that Sinatra had enormous talent (and influence), but I tend to agree with you and Smaxie. The exception for me is the Capitol Records' recordings, when the young Sinatra could sing gently or powerfully and be equally convincing even with some mediocre material. (Frankly, I think his voice was too light-weight for "Soliloquy". It's not a song for crooners.)
But I never forgave him for his contempt for lyrics and lyricists. I'm glad he made a lot of money for Kander & Ebb, but simply repeating phrases aimlessly on "New York, New York" was unforgivable."
Gaveston, as the Board’s expert of last resort, I cannot imagine where you got the idea that Sinatra was contemptuous of composers and lyricists. He was the greatest admirer of their craft. Before every live performance he announced the composers and the arranger and praised them. I thought that naming the arranger was especially kind as they contribute the most to the final sound of the recording and receive the least credit. Or more frequently no credit.
On this matter you are simply wrong.
Posted: 8/19/18 at 7:53pm
Posted: 8/19/18 at 10:55pm
I took this moniker ten years ago when I first subscribed to SiriusXM and spent many hours listening to the Sinatra channel. I discovered many of his gems, with the Capitol years being the greatest mine. I’m not a starry eyed devotee now, but those who do not see him as a very significant artist have their heads in the sand. Have you ever listened to the album “In the Wee Small Hours?” Have you seen his television specials with Ella Fitzgerald and Antonio Carlos Jobim?
It occurred to me that Gaveston was upset with altering the lyrics of “New York, New York.” I can see objecting to changes in the lyrics of Soliloquy or “Old Man River” or “Lost in the Stars,” but not with fun songs like “New York, New York” and “Lady is a Tramp.” If Kander and Ebb were unhappy about the lyric changes, the literally millions of dollars in royalty payments to them and their estates probably helped to mollify them.
Posted: 8/20/18 at 12:31am
OlBlueEyes, you must have misplaced your reading glasses, because your posts say much the same as mine and then you announce that I am "simply wrong". No, I "simply" have a different gut reaction to Sinatra as a whole.
For example, you reaffirm my assertions that the Capital recordings are the best and that Kander & Ebb were well compensated for Sinatra's mangling of their lyric. (I do disagree your apparent belief that only sad or pensive songs are "serious". Hart took as much care with "The Lady Is a Tramp" as Hammerstein did with "Ol' Man River".)
And while Sinatra's "Aren't I the hipster?" persona grates on me--his need to stick the words "Coo Coo" into every other song is the best evidence of his regard for lyricists--I never denied his importance in the history of popular music. It's Armstrong to Crosby to Sinatra to Elvis to The Beatles to, I guess, Michael Jackson, at least among male pop superstars.
If you want the definitive Rat Pack "Soliloquy", however, try Sammy Davis, Jr. Still not John Raitt, but Davis comes closer to the required emotional range.
Finally, I haven't claimed to be the "Board Expert" on anything. When it comes to theater and music history, there are many here with far better memories than mine.
Posted: 8/20/18 at 8:42am
Sinatra had the utmost respect for the songwriters. As was previously mentioned, while in concert, he would state the names of the composer and lyricist before singing each song. Name another singer of equal stature to do the same.
His Soliloquy brought the song to the masses. Whether you like it or not, you can't dare say he didn't sing it with conviction.
Posted: 8/20/18 at 12:10pm
Does anyone know if Alfie Boe has recorded Soliloquy? I think he could certainly do it justice.
Posted: 8/20/18 at 10:10pm
Evans2 said: "Sinatra had the utmost respect for the songwriters. As was previously mentioned, while in concert, he would state the names of the composer and lyricist before singing each song. Name another singer of equal stature to do the same.
His Soliloquy brought the song to the masses. Whether you like it or not, you can't dare say he didn't sing it with conviction."
Actually, Judy Garland often announced the names of songwriters and arrangers, even when she had limited time on her TV show. Songwriters WERE stars back in the day and saying you were going to sing Porter or Berlin gave a singer extra cred.
I don't pretend to speak for Sinatra's "convictions". I haven't heard his "Soliloquy" for years (so I'll happily take your word if you enjoyed it). Most of the time, however, he acted too cool for any "conviction" I would recognize.
Posted: 8/20/18 at 11:12pm
''I've heard all of the performances mentioned above (and 3 more), and for me, the best by far was James Snyder. I just wish that it had been recorded.''
You can see a snippet of Snyder's ''Soliloquy'' here (at 4:17):
(I wish Snyder or Pasquale played Billy in the latest ''Carousel'' )
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-ZEIPmSdeks
Updated On: 8/20/18 at 11:12 PM
Posted: 8/21/18 at 3:37am
Gaveston, I name you Board Expert not due to your opinion, but to my opinion over the years.
Sinatra could be very crude in concert, and I would probably be the last to tolerate him based on his life versus mine, except that the excellence of many of his recordings stand out. Many of the "standards" of Rodgers and Hart and Cole Porter would be forgotten if Sinatra had no popularized them. (Props also to Ella Fitzgerald's Songbook Series.) Far from being careless when recording, he chose the best musicians and the best arrangers and was king of the recording sessions, repeating live takes until he was satisfied.
With just any arrangement, "I've Got You Under My Skin" would have been another good cover of a Porter song. With Nelson Riddle's famous arrangement, it was one of the top 100 recordings of the century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8_yPG5I63M
Posted: 8/21/18 at 8:26am
Gaveston, thank you for referencing Sammy Davis Jr.'s "Soliloquy." It's one of my favorite versions, a heartfelt example of "acting through song." No trace of Rat Pack mannerisms here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy-N0QbkdCU
