Will we ever see a Lincoln Center Oklahoma! revival? — Page 3

gypsy101 said: "y'all calling Oklahoma a terrible musical is complete rubbish; sure it's a bit quaint but i think it's still relevant and the score is terrific. The Hugh Jackman production on dvd is one of my favorite filmed productions.



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Same. I love that production so much!!

henrikegerman, you bring up a MAJOR issue I have with a lot of young people in theatre. They think that only shows that deal with topical issues like race, immigration, gender equality/flexibility etc. are of any worth, and that anything else is "fluff" regardless of the merit of the craft! Granted in this case I do agree that elements of OKLAHOMA are a bit awkward, and certainly not as elegantly done as say SOUTH PACIFIC or CAROUSEL, but I'm not sure it's far from the level of awkwardness present in something like THE KING AND I (for the record I really don't think either is bad, not perfect but hardly any shows are).

And as you say there are infinite numbers of BAD topical pieces (film, theatre, TV and otherwise) that are lauded for taking on such issues when in fact they aren't really that good.

An epic discussion now of two of Broadway's landmark productions by some of the best minds on BWW.

Here is a thoughtful Frank Rich review not of the Prince revival, but of the Kahn production that preceded it by twelve years. Something for everyone.

Although the story's actual events are a bit too thin and contrived to support the grandeur of the conception and the music, there's pleasure in watching Hammerstein's pursuit of an epic, adult vision. One sees the groundwork for the musicals he'd write with Richard Rodgers later on. One can even argue that a subtle ''Show Boat'' motif, the appropriation of black music by white singers, foreshadows ''Dreamgirls'' - and that the double-edged use of vaudeville numbers, to indicate historical and character developments, anticipates ''Gypsy'' and ''Follies.'' (Stephen Sondheim, in fact, seems to pay specific homage to ''Why Do I Love You?'' in ''Follies.''

This is why Hammerstein's libretto, unlike so many others in vintage musicals, need not be swept under the rug; it's worthy of inventive thinking by a contemporary director.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/25/theater/the-stage-show-boat-a-theatrical-treasure.html?pagewanted=all

henrikegerman said: "
There seems to be an underlying notion at play in this thread, and in frequent threads on this board, that aspiration, complexity and thematic sophistication are somehow synonymous with the value of a theatrical work.

I couldn't disagree more with that premise.

There are brilliant theatrical works which have profound thematic aspirations and preposterous pablum that sports equally profound thematic aspirations. Just as there are great "light" or even "thin" plays and bad ones.

To confuse "significance" of authorial intention with the value of a work or, for that matter, lightness of authorial intention with a judgment of a work's value, is, ironically, to engage in a very shallow understanding of the power of theatre.

There is nothing greatly at stake in The Importance of Being Earnest. Anything Goes doesn't have any aspirations more ambitious than pure entertainment. But each is a superb work which has greatly satisfied the most discriminating audiences' heads and hearts and, hopefully, will continue to do so forever.

In contrast, there are countless plays and musicals which for all their aspirations to "seriousness" remain pure junk.






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Yes, henrik, but the contention in this thread was that OKLAHOMA is boring because it isn't "about" anything, unlike later R&H offerings. I was contradicting the premise that OKLAHOMA is devoid of serious thought AND the conclusion that it is therefore boring.

As far as I'm concerned, this conversation is happening only because posters have seen great revivals of SOUTH PACIFIC and THE KING AND I in the past decade while the last great OKLAHOMA! revival hit Broadway back in the 1980s.

I thought I skipped Trevor Nunn quite nicely. His was not the 1980s revival.

poisonivy, the Vietnam War was, on the American side, about the U.S. fighting to maintain the colonial order. The same colonialism that Mrs. Anna wants to keep away from Siam.

Blaming her for the Vietnam War seem unfair.

You write quite well, Jarethan. You are certainly not at a loss in that department.

As you say, "three singles on a Sunday around Christmas" -- obviously, some people still think the show works. That production inspired a quite lengthy national tour after it closed in NYC.

I actually didn't see that production. But a friend took over the role of Ado Annie on the road and she speaks very highly of it. (Which is NOT a reason why you had to like it, of course.)

Updated On: 7/17/17 at 01:50 AM

I adore the TKAI and I also agree that "Western People Funny" keeps the show from being patronizing. The show really is about two very different cultures meeting and learning from one another. I guess there are some questionable things about it, but it's just far too beautifully crafted to sweep under the rug.

As for Oklahoma, I must say that I saw a lovely production of it in the round with Mary Testa and Amber Gray a year or two ago and they really were able to breathe some life into that show by giving it a bit of a modern twist. The show itself was still kind of stale, but the inventive staging and bluegrass arrangements made for an enjoyable night at the theatre. I actually think that production would work extremely well Off-Broadway. It would probably kill at the box office.

Updated On: 7/17/17 at 04:31 AM

poisonivy2 said: "While we're discussing problematic R&H musicals I love it but TKAI has some aspects that really make me cringe, particularly the tone of Western exceptionalism and the idea that only Western ideals could fix outdated Asian culture. Fortunately the story and music are rich enough to overcome these obstacles but honestly when I see TKAI I think of the 58,000 Americans who never came back from Vietnam (and the thousands and thousands more who came back completely broken as well as all the Vietnamese people who lost their lives and their homes and their families) and think that it's the attitude of a bunch of Anna Leonowens' that caused that tragedy.



I do not have any problem with TKAI. I think it is as close to perfect as a show can be...just missing an R&H Tier 1 song for the king (and I have to admit that, given the number of times I have seen it, I would like to be able to cancel the performance of The Small House of Uncle Thomas at selected performances if I was not in the mood for it. I think that the book conveys that the attempt at Westernization was going too far, although the Western Exceptionalism was a very real thing and they saw this as a way to combat that; also, I always felt that the scene of the Siamese women looking silly in their hoop skirts was actually a commentary on how silly those hoop skirts were, not the Siamese women, who wore much more practical outfits.

Even the Prince/Stroman revival, as beautifully staged as it was, couldn't help but expose the creakiness of Show Boat.

And I hate Oklahoma. I hate Oklahoma like I hate Helen Hunt. Irrationally and without feeling the need to defend my position.

Taste is odd, isn't it? I couldn't disagree with Matt more re FOLLIES, yet I have precisely his reaction when it comes to SHOW BOAT. OKLAHOMA! is better constructed, whether you think it's "corny" or not, but SHOW BOAT is often more moving. All three are great shows, IMO, in performance AND as historical landmarks.

I predict OKLAHOMA! is just waiting for a director who understands what life was like on the frontier and how getting the right girl to go to the box social was a pretty big deal in small communities with few potential mates and no divorce if you made the wrong decision.

OKLAHOMA! is better constructed, whether you think it's "corny" or not, but SHOW BOAT is often more moving.

THIS^
The right production of Show Boat can turn me into a sobbing mess, as the latest West End revival proved. When the show was over, as we're leaving the theatre, I said to my husband, "That was...so...wuh-huh-huh-hunderful!" Not realizing that I could barely catch my breath to speak. Even when I just try to talk about it, I get all verklempt. It's RARE that I see a show that has such a crazy profound emotional effect on me (most recently, it was Parade, the world's most depressing musical). I won't pretend that it's normal, but it is what it is.

I'm afraid that I just have no clue as to what the connection between The King and I and the Vietnam War is supposed to be. It's true that Vietnam was part of French Indo-China and the U.S. furnished aid to the French in the battle of Dien Bien Phu, but the U.S. never intervened in that French disaster that ended French presence in the area. President Eisenhower has been quoted that "Nobody is more opposed to intervention than I am." This was way back in 1954.

The United States involvement in the Vietnam War in the 60s and 70s was part of the effort of the Western nations to stop the spread of international Communism. This goes back to the end game of World War II. Roosevelt and Churchill and Stalin met at Yalta in 1944 and Stalin promised that all the Eastern European nations occupied by Soviet troops would be allowed to chose their own form of government and the Soviets would honor that. Of course they didn't and set up puppet Communist regimes in all of those countries.

Things got very serious. The Soviets demanded that the US, England, and France give up their portion of Berlin that all had agreed could occupy it and the U.S. had to implement the famous Berlin airlift. Churchill gave his famous speech about "an iron curtain has descended across Europe." The huge nation of China embraced Communism. The Korean War was fought to keep North Korea from reuniting with South Korea as a Communist nation. Castro took over Cuba and turned it into a Communist state right off the coast of Florida, and the Soviet Union provided them with aid and more: nuclear missiles. This ignited the famed Cuban Missile Crisis where, I have come to believe, there really was a brush with a nuclear holocaust (Khrushchev was the real hero of that encounter. He blinked, with the loss of honor that cost him his job).

So, as improbable as it may seem, faced with Communism seemingly on ascension everywhere, we went into Southeast Asia to stop the Communist North from reuniting with the "so called" democratic South. Our leaders were certain that the fall of South Vietnam would be followed by Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and the other nations in that area forming another solidly Communist block.

But the idea that Oscar Hammerstein was responsible for the war by writing the book for The King and I would make a much more entertaining story.

I can see some examples of what you mean, PoisonIvy.

Certainly democracy. Whenever the U.S. has gained influence over another country through war, or annexation, or at the request of another country that thought it needed protection, it always hauls democracy with it. No argument. Government chosen by the people in free elections was the only way that a country could choose to govern itself.

Religion? Since we have no state religion, I don't think that the government has often tried to influence the religion of other countries, but missionaries usually follow.

The U.S. occupied Japan for seven years after the end of World War II. Besides bringing them democracy, of course, and baseball, in what other ways did we try to change them? We allowed them to keep their emperor, who they thought was a god, and worship him.

Most of the other changes were liberal and most here would approve of them, I think. We brought trade unions and a Labor Standards Act, which improved the life of laborers with better living conditions, pay, medical care. The new constitution that we helped write had massive increases in the rights of women, who previously had pretty much no rights and "were treated as chattel."

Maybe you have other things in mind. Since my capsule history of the Vietnam War seems to have driven everyone away, I'll be quiet now.

Updated On: 7/18/17 at 10:40 PM