Will we ever see a Lincoln Center Oklahoma! revival? — Page 4

poisonivy2 said: "

I'm not saying Anna Leonowens = Robert McNamara but TKAI has this post-WW2 zeitgeist that the Allies beat Germany and Japan, and could "win" everywhere. That Asian cultures were quaint and needed Western knowledge and modernization. I love the show and think that with the right actors it can be a very moving night in the theater, but don't know how you can watch it and not think (of the Vietnam War)."

Well, I don't think of the Vietnam War because TKAI doesn't take place in Vietnam. It takes place in Thailand, called Siam at certain historical periods and in the play. Forgive me, but isn't it a form of Orientalism to assume that all South Asian cultures are the same?

Yes, Oscar Hammerstein believed that a democratic republic is a better and fairer form of government than an absolute monarchy. He participated closely in an organization that worked toward the formation of a worldwide federal system, modeled after the American model.

Whether the U.S. should be the model is debatable (especially after the second presidential election in 16 years where the loser was "crowned" by the Electoral College), but I'll offend post-modernists everywhere by opining that democracy is ultimately and most often a superior system to dictatorship (hereditary or not).

What others are suggesting to you is that Hammerstein took pains to point out that British customs could be just as arbitrary as Siamese. That doesn't mean slavery is anything but an evil institution.

I'm not disagreeing that Orientalism influenced our willingness to spend so much treasure and so many lives in a small, former French colony; but at its heart and for the American government, the Vietnam War was a proxy war fought against Russian and China. To the Vietnamese, it was a war of nationalist liberation, of course, and the American failure to understand that led to a lot of tragedy. But while this epic misunderstanding is at the heart of M. BUTTERFLY, I don't find it at the heart of TKAI.

(ETA: I responded to poisonivy before reading her posts with BlueEyes. Thanks to the latter for explaining the Domino Theory.)

Updated On: 7/17/17 at 11:39 PM

I'm not disagreeing that Orientalism influenced our willingness to spend so much treasure and so many lives in a small, former French colony; but at its heart and for the American government, the Vietnam War was a proxy war fought against Russian and China.

It was certainly a proxy war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, and also China. Unfortunately when the U.S. started to lose the proxy wars in Korea and China, it sent in hundreds of thousands of troops to try to reverse the course.

But I'm afraid that I still don't see the relevance of Orientalism to the outcome. Our country never wanted to coddle or convert the Vietnamese, as I understand it. We just wanted to kill them so we could get a treaty and go home. Hence Nixon sent the B-52s over Hanoi and Haiphong in the infamous December, 1972 Christmas bombings. Not attacks on military targets, but attacks on the civilian population aimed at reopening the peace talks. And for once, the terror bombing appeared to work, as the peace talks resumed a few weeks later and a treaty was signed.

TKAI of course is not responsible for the Vietnam War.


Of course not, everyone knows that Obama was busy playing golf and did nothing to stop the Vietnam War.

Whereas the film adaptations of South Pacific, Carousel, My Fair Lady, Fiddler on the Roof, and a bunch of other musicals were not anywhere near what they could have been.

I understand the issue with South Pacific and to some degree, My Fair Lady (though I never had a problem with MFL). What's the beef with Carousel and Fiddler? Personally, I think Fiddler is an excellent film adaptation.

Before we revive Follies, we have to wait until O'Hara and Benanti are old enough to play Sally/Phyllis.

poisonivy2 said: "I also wonder if Oklahoma seems less necessary as a revival because unlike most golden age musicals, it has an excellent film adaptation? The Sound of Music has sort of the same problem. Whereas the film adaptations of South Pacific, Carousel, My Fair Lady, Fiddler on the Roof, and a bunch of other musicals were not anywhere near what they could have been.

I really don't think that is the reason. The Fiddler on the Roof and My Fair Lady movies are classics (even though I would have loved for MFL not to have been filmed entirely on sound stages). I enjoyed the Fiddler movie more than any live production of Fiddler I have seen, and I have been seeing Fiddler since Zero Mostel was first Tevye.

While the movie of South Pacific was severely botched, it was a monster hit in its day because of all the good parts. I would bet that most movie goers don't much distinguish Carousel or Oklahoma on first blush... 'oh, Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones were great as Curly and Ado Annie in Carousel' (intentional error). I have no scientific proof of this, but I would bet that it seems less necessary because less people like it.