judy kaye replaces madeline kahn in on 20th century?what is the real story?- Page 3

[beaemma]

Posted: 3/13/12 at 2:03pm

For the record, I'm on Team Kaye, but we are all comparing live performances seen on one or a few occasions. A real professional tries for the same performance every night, but there are always variations. Some actors vary more than others. Our opinions may rest entirely on whether we saw someone on the right night.

[beaemma]

Posted: 3/13/12 at 2:37pm

Followspot--maybe it's what Ernie said to Ethel.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 3/13/12 at 3:04pm

I think Kahn's story is indicative of a sexist attitude that still exists: for male stars, the show is moulded around them. For women, they have to fit in to suit the show. It would have been much more sensible to showcase the mercurial talents of this unique lady than to try to shoe-horn her into being something she couldn't be.

When a male star takes a role by the scruff of the neck, he is a genius; when a woman wants to do the same thing, she is a diva.

PS I'm not saying there was no fault here, I'm just saying some people get given a hard time

[newintown]

Posted: 3/13/12 at 3:15pm

"...for male stars, the show is moulded around them. For women, they have to fit in to suit the show."

In what universe do you live?

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/13/12 at 3:34pm

Our opinions may rest entirely on whether we saw someone on the right night.

Absolutely. I've never doubted that Kahn was brilliant on opening night and I don't doubt anyone who says they saw her give a great performance in the role. My experience was completely different, but I saw a different night and the issue, as I've heard it, was always consistency, not competence.

Which is why, devonian, that I'm not sure the problem here was that the show wasn't molded to suit Kahn. I'm not denying that sexism persists in the theater, but the 20th CENTURY play and film were well-known works with iconic leading characters. Given that, I don't know how they could have tailored it more for Kahn, short of letting her sing "I'm Tired" from BLAZING SADDLES. (And in fact the "Veronique" and "Babette" sequences seem to have been created specifically for Kahn's talents.)

How she was treated by the director is another matter. I wasn't there and can't comment on that.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/14/12 at 2:10pm

This is a different, although interesting, debate, but while sexism is of course prevalent in theatre history just like anywhere else, surely Broadway *musicals* especially have a long history of moulding shows around a female star--I think I can think of more examples than with male stars...

That said, I'll slightly disagree with Gaveston (rare, I know)--the musical has MANY differences from the play and movie, I think Comden and Green combined several different sources.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 3/14/12 at 10:38pm

Miss Kahn may have also been burned dealing with the antics of Danny Kaye in TWO BY TWO some seasons earlier. She may have just found live theatre too uncomfortable next to working in film, especially with someone probably more sympatico to her talents as Mel Brooks.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/14/12 at 11:04pm

I think Comden and Green combined several different sources.

Per Wiki, they also used a biography of David Belasco, the purported inspiration for Oscar Jaffee.

Eric, I didn't mean to suggest the creators didn't put their own stamp on the project. Cy Coleman's idea to treat it as a comic opera alone made it quite different from the film.

I only meant that the story and characters were quite well known in the 1970s and Comden and Green had a framework within which they probably felt they had to work. Unlike FADE OUT FADE IN, for example, where they could build scene after scene on whatever they thought were Carol Burnett's best bits.

To put it more bluntly, in FADE they wrote a scene where Burnett put her face in cement in front of Grauman's Chinese Theater and of course she got her face stuck as the curtain fell. It was a closing bit tailor made for Burnett's charicature-ready countenance.

Although in theory they could have written an equivalent scene for Kahn, I doubt they would have done so. But as I already said, the "Veronique" and "Babette" sequences do seem tailor-made for Kahn's gifts. Fortunately, Judy Kaye also found a way to make them work, even if they weren't designed for her and she probably wasn't as fall-down funny in them.

[751guy]

Posted: 3/14/12 at 11:33pm

Betty Comden was theatre royalty.

Loved ON THE TWENTIETH CENTURY and saw it many times as it changed nightly when it tried out in Boston at the Colonial Theatre. I remember seeing Jackie Onassis, elegant and stunning, at the Opening Night on Broadway.

When I finally met Betty years later, all I could sing was...

'Five zeros preceded by a two,
preceded by a dollar sign
is too oh oh oh oh oh
wonderful for words.'

She giggled like a school girl.
A class act, Ms. Comden, for sure.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 3/15/12 at 3:51am

"My two cents: I had a friend who was in the chorus of ON THE TWENTIETH CENTURY and he believed Kahn got screwed. He had nothing but nice things to say about her."

Interesting. I have exactly the same story. I wonder if we share a friend, borstal?

[random person 112]

Posted: 3/16/12 at 9:02pm

Somewhat off topic but is the show sung completely through?

Updated On: 3/16/12 at 09:02 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/16/12 at 9:27pm

"...for male stars, the show is moulded around them. For women, they have to fit in to suit the show."

Tell that to Kristin Chenoweth.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/16/12 at 10:11pm

Somewhat off topic but is the show sung completely through?

No, random, it isn't. "Comic opera" was a concept from Cy Coleman that guided the writing and allowed him to avoid 1920s' pastiche, which he thought overdone at the time. But it was more a way of looking at the characters than a description of the libretto structure.

There are some musical sequences that might remind one of an operetta finaletto, but it's basically a spoken-book show.

[egghumor]

Posted: 3/16/12 at 10:12pm

As gifted as she genuinely is, I also find kristen Chenoweth is be equally annoying, ubiquitous, and irrating. I also say she was BORN TO PLAY Lily Garland!

[random person 112]

Posted: 3/16/12 at 10:20pm

^I too think she'll be spectacular in the role, just from what i've heard so far from the cast recording, plus if she doesn't do it soon she'll be too old.