Will there ever be a really good new musical that...- Page 2

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 5:15pm

The Music Man -- best example ever.

[Derek]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 6:09pm

Def. The Music Man. And a good show at that too.

[professor]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 9:40pm

JoeKV99: Your sarcasm notwithstanding, I was referring to Avenue Q's originality in terms of its story and characters. You're right in that Avenue Q would probably not exist if it weren't for Sesame Street, but then Sunday in the Park probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for Seurat's "A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte"....

[Plum]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 9:45pm

Avenue Q takes advantage of pre-existing knowledge of Sesame Street in ways Sunday doesn't draw on its source painting, but your point is true. Q isn't based directly on Sesame Street and in fact had to distance some of its puppets from that in order to avoid legal trouble.

Anyway, originality in book source material is overrated. As T.S. Eliot may or may not have said, "Good poets borrow. Great poets steal." No art really comes from nothing- it's all in how you use your inspirations.

[CastAlbumFan]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 9:46pm

A CHORUS LINE is another great example.

[audreypocahontas]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:32pm

I know this one, Hedwig. I'm sure there must be lots of others... but hedwig is the only musical I know. I thought a lot of Sondheim was original?

[Plum]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:50pm

Of Sondheim's shows, the only originals I can think of are Anyone Can Whistle, Pacific Overtures, and Sunday in the Park With George.

ETA- And maybe Follies. Updated On: 7/22/05 at 10:50 PM

[apdarcey]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:53pm

pacific overtures is original? you must be kidding plum.

[melissa errico fan]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:54pm

I guess you could include William Finn's A New Brain, although it's based upon his own personal experiences.

[Plum]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:54pm

Why, what was Pacific Overtures based on, apdarcey? Historical events don't count.

[zoran912]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 10:59pm

JoeKV - I really don't appreciate your sarcasm. It's not helpful, or funny.

To clarify, I was simply broadening the popular definition of Original in terms of musicals. "The Light in the Piazza" simply was the first that came to mind. I could have just as easily mentioned something else. Piazza just came to mind.

Don't judge me for defending a show that has no need of defense. Piazza is doing fine. It would be another thing entirely if I was trying to defend BKLYN.

[badroit]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:33am

FYI: In the POST today...legal entanglements for HARMONY are now gone!

[musicgal04]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 10:18am

I am pretty sure Urinetown was an original piece as well.

[Forester]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 10:23am

Wasn't Piazza based on a movie by the same title?

[LaCageAuxFollesFan2]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 10:33am

I could be wrong, but...

Isn't IN MY LIFE a completely new work of a musical hitting Bway this season?

[MarkCohen]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 12:49pm

I was also about to say Urinetown.

[Aigoo]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 12:50pm

What was BARE based off of?

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 1:03pm

Would you consider RENT? Even though it's based on "La Boheme"

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:15pm

The basic plot and characters are based on LA BOHEME so no, RENT cannot be considered original.

LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA is based on an Elizabeth Spencer novella, which subsequently became a movie.

As for Sondheim, COMPANY is based on a series of one acts by George Furth that were unpublished and unproduced -- he took them to Hal Prince who thought they might work better musicalized and introduced him to Sondheim -- so it's, for all intents and purposes, original. ANYONE CAN WHISTLE, FOLLIES, PACIFIC OVERTURES, and SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE are more or less original (though the latter two were inspired by historical events and a painting, respectively). Much of the plot of INTO THE WOODS is original (The Baker Story is an invention by Lapine, as are Rapunzel's Princes and all of Act II). For ASSASSINS, one could argue that while characters are based on historical record, the plot of it is original (obviously none of these people ever actually met each other).

Other "original" shows not mentioned so far:

--ALLEGRO and ME AND JULIET (two of only three Rodgers & Hammerstein shows that weren't hits)
-- OF THEE I SING
-- ANYTHING GOES
-- BRIGADOON
-- FINIAN'S RAINBOW
-- HAIR (though the book consists of loosely connected vignettes)
-- LADY IN THE DARK
-- FUNNY FACE
-- CALL ME MADAM
-- REDHEAD
-- BYE BYE BIRDIE
-- ON THE TOWN
-- BELLS ARE RINGING
-- NO STRINGS
-- ON A CLEAR DAY
-- HALLELUJAH BABY!
-- GREASE
-- PIPPIN (not really based on the story of Pepin)
-- THEY'RE PLAYING OUR SONG
-- DREAMGIRLS (not really based on the actual story of the Supremes)
-- CITY OF ANGELS

[roquat]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:35pm

If you want to be really technical, "Follies" was inspired by a photograph of Gloria Swanson standing in the rubble of the Roxy Theatre. That, like "Sunday in the Park" being inspired by a painting, is, I suppose, certainly more "original" than an adaptation like "My Fair Lady", but what is the point? The common theme of these posts seems to be that all works of art have some moment of inspiration. Whether it comes from a picture ("Follies") a historical event ("Pacific Overtures", "Dreamgirls") a series of tape recordings ("Chorus Line") or a full, published work ("My Fair Lady") seems quibbling. Is there something wrong with adapted works--is "Fiddler on the Roof" a lesser musical than "Follies" just because it is an adaptation? Doesn't it also depend on how much of an adaptation it is? I mean, "Fiddler" is deathless, but who do you know who still reads those Sholom Aleichem stories?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:57pm

No one's suggesting that so-called "original" works are better than adapted works -- or at least I'M not suggesting that. But, it is an interesting point that very few good shows didn't take their plot and characters from a previously existing book, play or film.

As you say, every work of art is inspired by something. But, I would think it takes a great deal more time, invention and creativity to start off with a photograph of Gloria Swanson in the rubble of the Roxy Theatre and from that come up with a complex two and a half hour show about a reunion of ex-showgirls with all original characters, conflicts, flashbacks, dream sequences, themes and metaphors, than it is to start with something like "The Producers" where the plot and characters and much of the dialogue are already finished, you know that they work and your job is basically just to edit the story down, beef up the character of Ulla and figure out where to put the songs. That's not to say adapting a previously existing work is easy -- book writers still botch the job far more often than they get it right -- but it's certainly EASIER than starting completely from scratch.

Updated On: 7/23/05 at 02:57 PM

Posted: 7/23/05 at 4:09pm

Excellent List Margo! I was fiddling with one of my own, but you came up with a lot more. Your "Follies" example is perfect. How does one make the leap from that single image to a fully developed show with interconnected plots, songs, characters?

But I wonder why this is true of Musicals and not other art forms? Movies are just about fifty/fifty between adaptations and orginals but I'd guess musicals have to be 95/5 at least. Is it that librettists need a pre-exisiting structure to slot songs into? Or is it just that the great ones are more likely to start with another idea? It's an itneresting topic indeed!

[WiCkEDrOcKS]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 4:12pm

Jesus I honestly thought no one would respond to this thread. LOL. Enjoying everyone's opinions/comments...

[CastAlbumFan]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 6:01pm

Actually Margo, ME AND JULIET closed with a modest profit, and I believe that even though ALLEGRO closed at a loss, it recouped its investment with a tour and its London opening. Thus, PIPE DREAM is the on R&H show that didn't turn a profit. I would say that these three shows were the most dissapointing in the R&H lexicon.