pirate queen sinks- Page 3

[ABSteel]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 5:19am

All I have to say is that there IS a third act. Every story has a third act, there just isn't an intermission between the second and third like there is between the first and second.

Carry on.

[Phantom2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:24pm

"I have yet to see a post that has said this show is GREAT or PERFECT!"

I guess you didn't read my review. I thought it was GREAT and PERFECT!

[jasonf]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:26pm

I "saw" the show on Thursday - the reason for the quotes - Caitie and I left at intermission. Granted, we had scored free tickets, but even had we paide I'm not entirely sure we would have subjected ourselves to a second act. The music was repetitve or tuneless, or just stolen from better shows, the lyrics were trite and often didn't even fit what melody was there, the book was a COMPLETE wreck from start to finish. I was able to outline in 20 minutes a way to make the book work more coherently (at least the first act) and how to make the show itself work.
I will say the performances were good and we did like the costumes, but otherwise there wasn't nearly enough to keep us going.
I'd say easily half the people in the section we were in (all people who got free tickets) got up and left at intermission as well -- the show IS a dud.

Please note: Les Mis is my absolute favorite show - I've seen scores and scores of shows and majored in theater in college - I'm no novice. I have NEVER left a show early, nor wanted to - but I wasn't subjecting myself to this any more.

[Phantom2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:30pm

This is absurd!

[Popular]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:31pm

I was able to outline in 20 minutes a way to make the book work more coherently (at least the first act) and how to make the show itself work.

That's a pretty bold and presumptuous statement. Care to share since you can figure out in 20 minutes what the very seasoned and brilliant creators (in your opinion) couldn't?

Since you didn't bother to even stay till the end and see how the story ends for yourself, how in the world do you have a plan to get us there more coherently?
Updated On: 3/25/07 at 01:31 PM

[Phantom2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:33pm

I was captivated the entire time. There's so much going on, it's exciting. They couldn't have assembled a more kick ass cast.

[MarkK]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 1:44pm

I went this weekend. In my opinion, it doesn’t deserve the vitriol that it receives on this board. But with that said, I think it’s about 20 - 30 minutes too long. I’m not sure what needs to be cut. In general, it just seems to drag on for no purpose.

Visually, I thought it was beautiful and I enjoyed the score…. It was just a bit boring for me. It reminded me of Lestat - in the sense that - I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I didn’t care for it.

People around me kept rudely looking at their watches. And, I wanted to ask them if they had some place else to be. I’m glad I went, but it’s definitely not something I would see again.

[keen on kean]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 2:12pm

Checking your watch is the international signal for I'm not engaged in this show.

I haven't seen the show but I will say in its defense that if I didn't go to shows that get kicked on this board I wouldn't end up seeing anything.

But carry on.

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 2:54pm

Popular why do you always jump on everyone who doesn't like it?

Many people are not loving this show

you like it, i get it but you don't need to jump on everyone who doesn't or tell them to explain themselves or insult them.

If someone wants to say its ****, well thats there opinion they don't need to go in to detail why.

Dont mean any disrespect to you by this , i just don't get it

[Popular]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 3:02pm

I wasn't jumping on them for not liking the show.

I was questioning their statement about having figured out how to fix the show when they didn't even stay to see the whole thing.

It also came off as a very arrogant statement to say that they had the solution after only 20 minutes when a whole team of creators who are much more experienced have been working for years on this ... and then not even offer their thoughts on what those solutions are.

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 3:06pm

he doesn't need to. no one needs to

Mass opinion is the show is going to flop,quickly.

All them people with years of experience haven't been able to pull this together ,its a shame ,but thats whats happened.

Many people are going to come on this board and say they don't like it.

He said he thought it was and incohereant in places(i have to agree) and also said the performances were good as were the costumes.

Thats enough feedback in my opinion

[Popular]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 3:12pm

No offense but this is like talking to a wall.

Maybe someone else want to make my point clearer. I'm kind of done.

[queenbee2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 5:15pm

Popular- You know I am on your side of the aisle here, but save your breath honey.

You are debating with someone (songanddanceman) who is basing his statements on bootleg videos of the show. It's laughable.

Don't even waste your time.

-QB

[jasonf]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:22pm

I don't take offense to your statement Popular -- you're right, I should have posted that (I had to go and wrapped up quicker than I intended to). I didn't see the second act, but fixing the problems with the book in the first act wouldn't be that difficult - even in the matter of keeping with the same basic story-line:

SPOILER AHEAD (OBVIOUSLY)

1) The entire first 20 minutes should have been condensed into a 5-10 minute prologue. We didn't NEED all that build up to her becoming a member of the crew - if for no other reason than going into the show you know she will become a member soon - why take so long to get to that point?

2) The Queen was a HUGE hypocrite singing one song about how difficult it is to be a woman and then turning around and saying Grace can't lead a ship because she's a woman (at least, that seemed to be her main point in stopping Grace from what I got out of it, which makes very little sense). Give the queen some kind of internal conflict about the fact that she's facing a strong woman -- that connection was NEVER made in the first act where it NEEDED to be in order to build any kind of real tension between what I assume was a confrontation that must have come eventually.

3) Introduce the other clan earlier. When Donal's clan came on and suddenly Grace had to marry him, I felt like I was suddenly dumped into another show. These people weren't seen before AT ALL - they should have been introduced in the prologue (mentioned above) and the conflict between the clans shown earlier.

4) Tiernan's role feels VERY tangential throughout. He was literally "they guy Grace loved" with absolutely no personality whatsoever. "I'll Be There" - his one song, didn't solve that problem since he sang about Grace - nothing showed in his own personality there - nor did he pose any sort of tangible threat to the Grace/Donal marraige. Without that real threat, or making us care about him more, his role seemed tacked on (this is not to take away from the actor playing him - the role is just severely under-written)

5) There needed to be SOMETHING more to show the connection between Grace and her father. His death in the end of the first act is devoid of any meaning. Grace was never shown to REALLY care about him, he was only SORT OF shown to care about her (the excuse for a song that they gave him early in the act was pathetic and without any melody at all). They tried piling on some false emotion at the end, but no one could really say they cared he died -- two ways to fix that - one, show the relationship between father/daughter more, two, show his death - maybe it was an empty death, or he was injured protecting Grace - but SOMETHING needed to be there (who cares about historical realism here - it's a musical - MAKE US CARE!).

6) The one sword fight in the first act - I stage a better one with my middle school kids last year. That was EXTREMELY disappointing in the way of stage fighting - and it wasn't too impressive as a dance either.

7) Boys'll Be Boys has to go. The song is ridiculous and manipulative - it's a cheap attempt to make us go "Oh, Donal is scum, we get it, we won't like him." The song was unnecessarily crass -- they could have shown Donal as a "bad" guy in far more interesting ways - and far EARLIER in the show. (though I have to admit it was one melody-line I actually kind of liked, though it was very close to Master of the House).

As I said, I didn't see the second act -- but I think any or all of the things I listed here would have improved the first act quite a bit. To say that those who created the show are "seasoned professionals" and therefore beyond fault is ludicrous. Sondheim couldn't figure out what to do with Bounce, Kander and Ebb didn't exactly have a hit with Steel Pier -- there's no reason to assume that B & S were going to be able to nail this show just because they hit one out of the park with Les Mis.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:29pm

jasonf - how brilliant. A ridiculously brilliant analysis of the problems and solutions of the first act.

Brief problems with the 2nd Act:

Grace giving birth and ten minutes later, in a blood-stained birthing gown, attempting to fight the English.
Grace dismisses Donal and immediately goes after Tiernan, with no development or build up.
Donal's death should be the climax of the show, not a 5 second button at the end of a musical number.
7 year time elapse and they don't look any worse than they did before.
Grace's meeting with the Queen, the other climax of the show, is distinctly anti-climactic. We don't care what happens, we don't even know why the Queen wanted her captured to begin with. Kill the operatic score, add some dialogue in Act I for us to actually understand why she wants Grace captured.

Updated On: 3/25/07 at 06:29 PM

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:37pm

It make no difference what format they are watched on the show is still the same show and ive been in this business long enough to know a bad show when i see one.

I have no idea why you think it makes a blind bit of difference.One of the copies i have is what the company filmed so they can watch it back themselves(and if its good enough for them its good enough for me)

The simple fact is that people are gonna love it and people are gonna hate it but there is no point laying in to the people who dont like like it if they dont give a detailed write up of what they hated.

[queenbee2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:45pm

Yankee-

Couldn't agree with you more. I've said since Chicago I thought the death of Donal should be the climax of the show. And Jason, some interesting ideas in there.

Songanddance- without getting personal, you are ludicrous if you think watching a bootleg video is the same experience as being in the theater live.

With all of your "years in the business" I would expect more from you.

It's silly.

-QB

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:48pm

One would hope the creatives read these kinds of threads. Any correction in this vein would help the show. However, as I hear it's frozen, it's too late.

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:48pm

jesus christ

Its a pro shot company video so i have probably seen the show in more detail than most audience members.

Live theatre is the best way to see any show but it doesn't miraculously change the show when u watch it on dvd.

[Popular]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:51pm

jasonf - I appreciate you understanding that it wasn't about me getting on your case for not liking the show and clearing up your statement. You make some good points and you're obviously not the only one going away from the show feeling like they wanted a more solid story to care about.

I'm a little tired of people saying that I am not open to hearing anything negative about show. I have nothing invested in this show. I haven't even seen it in NY yet to comment on the changes. Yes, I'm rooting for it as I've been following it's development for a while and I'm a fan of the people involved and enjoyed what I saw in Chicago - but I'd never fault anyone for simply saying it wasn't perfect or pointing out it's weaknesses.

EDIT TO ADD - if the lead cast members have a sense of humor about the mixed reactions (watch the last castcom if you don't believe they do) then far be it from me who isn't even involved to step in and be on the defensive. Seriously, songanddanceman2, you're reading too much into my words.

I still think that you could've given the 2nd act a chance to wrap up or tie together some of the issues you had in the 1st but that's your choice to leave, I suppose.
Updated On: 3/25/07 at 06:51 PM

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 6:53pm

It's a show with an enormous amount of potential.

Too bad it'll go down in history as having an enormous amount of potential.

[jasonf]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 9:38pm

Popular -- Had I paid, I would have stayed for sure. The fact was, I just didn't care enough to see if these things were tied up or not when I hadn't paid for it. The point was, all that in my other post I came up with on the walk from the theater to Penn Station - if it was so easy for me, why couldn't the creators have fixed this stuff? There's no way they can NOT see some of those faults...

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 9:48pm

And yes, he really did come up with this stuff walking from the theater to Penn Station, I was there and we were discussing it. ANother note- We both went into this not knowing much and not really reading bww posts, we wanted to see it without others opinions in our minds and were really disappointed. I wanted to love this show, but obviously didn't.

And we left because we didn't care. We talked about it for quite a few minutes and saw that there was nothing in the characters that made us want to know what would happen. And this is nothing against the preformers...I thought they were fantastic with what they were given

[Lady Italy]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 9:51pm

But why would you want to shell out top dollar for a show that everyone seems to agree is never going to be anymore than just "good"?
************************************

SueleenGay

Yes, you did do a GENERALIZATION regarding EVERYONE... Not everyone says the PQ is only good. There are others who believe it's GREAT!!!!

[jasonf]

Posted: 3/25/07 at 9:54pm

I don't want to sound condescending - but can someone who DOES think the show is great please explain what about it IS great? For example, I don't personally like Hairspray, but I can see why others do. I don't begrudge that - it's just not my type of show. Pirate Queen SHOULD be my type of show, but the show is SO flawed (as I outlined above) that I can't understand what it is that people are LIKING in it. I should qualify this that I'm talking STRICTLY about the show itself - NOT the performances which were BY FAR the best part of the show....however, performances are fleeting - once these actors are gone, if the show has legs beyond the current staging, I shudder to think what that would look like...