West Side Story Question- Page 3

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 10:29pm

"are you saying what you did that what held meaning then doesn't now, or that productions today don't convey that meaning? "
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Oh, certainly the latter. The movie still holds all the meaning it ever did, I love it, and I don't begrudge it's position on the loverly TV special I'm watching now. (Psycho should be higher than this, by the way.) But since today's productions don't do anything new with it, they're just imitations.

As to your analysis of 'Krupke', I agree that it's a vaudeville number, and the Jets are deliberately being hokey and precious throughout the entire song. But I feel that the original lyric made the song much more effective. The kids are PISSED at authority. They can put on the cute act for only so long. They want to be listened to, and it's not happening, and they're angry.

The punk band Schlong released an album called "Punk Side Story" in 1995. It's pure punk music. They can't sing, they can barely play. But it's the best recording of West Side Story I have, because it sounds real. They sound like teenagers in crazy teenage love, who are part of gangs that want each other dead. They aren't pretty pretty people singing pretty pretty music to each other. They're raw and real. I've always wanted to see that on stage.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 10:42pm

"the Robbins' estate dictates on this piece that in any professional production, Robbins' choreography must be used."
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Huh. Somehow I missed that in you first response. That's a little odd. Okay well, still.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 11:25pm

I'm sorry for the confusion Kringas. I didn't see the original production, but...I've experienced it in every way possible...listening to the OBC, seeing performances from the original cast, other performances that recreate the original production, scenes from Jerome Robbins' Broadway, etc. My point was...like, for me, the movie is good, but far less superior to the original production. But I could understand why others would really like it, so I was kind of...making an alleghory between my feelings on the movie, and maybe what bb's might have been about the production you both saw. You know, like maybe it was good on its own, but not so good compared to...the original in whichever ways we have experienced it.

Yeah, that statement explains the whole choreographers not being interested in creating new choreograph for WSS because they're not interested in lawsuits West Side Story and Fiddler on the Roof are both held by the Robbins Estate that every professional production must use his choreography. Apparently there's booklets and stuff that describe the choreography. So yeah, the choreography for WSS/dancing will never be different, there's no way to argue it.

And Edmund, in other matters, I guess we'll have to agree and disagree. I've been put off by everything I've heard from...trying to bring WSS into the present, in terms of words and stuff. Even if you change all the words to reflect more realistic "gang lingo", which I personally think is ridiculous, you're still left with gangs who are doing pirouettes, and we know that CAN'T change, as I explained. I just think it makes the show ridiculous, to try to portray this realistic language amongst dancing gangs. Maybe it works on a CD, but I just can't fathom it working on stage.

(I do appreciate the points you are making, and am very much enjoying this entire discussion on the thread, for the record).

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 11:28pm

Thanks for clarifying!

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 11:37pm

I'm enjoying the discussion too. I think someone needs to buck the Robbins estate, then. It's artistically indefensible that they're FORCING them to use the same choreography. The Robbins estate is literally forcing theater to stop being creative with one of its greatest works. It needs to live again.

Here's a selection from a great article on Punk Side Story that says a lot of what I feel:

"Even when I was 13, it sounded silly to me for "Gee, Officer Krupke" to close with the line, "Krup You!" I find it downright Zen to listen to the line changed to "F*CK you!", much like the satisfaction I get from listening to unedited singles after hearing the censor's versions on television or radio. The slang invented by Arthur Laurents for West Side Story's book and film script are made grittier and more sardonic. ...

Shortly after Punk Side Story was released, Andy Asp received a letter from Nina Bernstein, daughter of Leonard Bernstein. According to Gavin, Asp's mother met Nina while riding horses in Santa Rosa, California, coincidentally my hometown. Nina's lawyer had given her a copy of Punk Side Story. "She was surprised that someone of our generation knew her father's score so well, and said she wouldn't sue us." What could have been a mocking of a musical theatre masterpiece is actually a loving tribute and update of the classic. As the movie trailer says, "Unlike other classics, West Side Story grows younger." So while Arthur Laurents described his intent for the original stage production as "a lyrically and theatrically sharpened illusion of reality", Schlong stripped that illusion away, and made West Side Story contemporary again."

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 1:21am

Thanks for sharing the quotes. Interesting...

But then I started thinking, let's say Krup You was changed to F*CK You. If the whole point is that this is a dramatic moment that they're lashing out, the notes aren't appropriate--the music ends in the complete vaudeville style. And what is to follow is me going through saying this note should be changed, and this note should be changed, and then I, the Bernstein worshipper, would say it's changing too much of the score. But maybe someone else without a complete idolization could justify it. Maybe end it on a tritone or something...if it follows the pattern of Bernstein's musical drama.

But I still maintain that you really can't change too much of the show without having to change most of the entire show, and I couldn't stand for that to happen.

Posted: 6/21/07 at 3:25am

The Sondheim forum actually recently discussed some of this (ie the Krupke "Krup You" ending, should Maria have died and revising or recreating (http://www.sondheim.com/community/index.php?board=7.0 ) and my thoughts are the same so I won't blabber on too much.

F*CK You for Krupke doesn't work ultimately for me--the dialogue of the characters--and Sondheim's lyrics for them--are SOO stylized... Many modern people seem to think that the slang they use is all 1950s slang but most of it was invented by Arthur Laurents--to have them then break out of this and use the F word no less--and at the end of a comic number, just for me would pull people out of the action. Krup you fits in with their already established dialect, suits the song better (wasn't it written as a comic number for Candide musically?) etc. I admit though when I was a teen first getting into WSS I absolutely thought it should be changed to F*CK you--krup you felt just like a cop out. So I dunno if I've just grown used to it or what--but I do think it fits the piece better. (Sure the slang Laurents uses is more gritty I suppose but it's not as gritty as F*CK anyway)

Re Robbins and choreography--it is a bit strange--I appreciate, being a HUGE fance fan that we have a record of most of his original choreography for shows (unlike say Fosse who we only have his dancers to pass on many fot he numbers seeing as he hated notation and filming his shows) but it does stick out when someone tries to do a new staging of Gypsy or Fiddler but is stuck using the old choreography... I think there should be some leeway.

Then again West Side Story is important IMHO as it was one of the first truly integrated musicals--the dance is as valid and important a part of it as the music or the text is and it was written in much around the dancing--not first with the dances then added. Of course this is true of other shows (while not as perfect a show as WSS I think one reason most revivals of Sweet Charity fall flat is the Fosse staging was such a key part of the authorship of that work that to restage it just makes it fall apart)... I do think it's as true of Company for instance, and yet many re-imaginings of that have worked well (thouhg a part of me wants to see a revival that gets back to the feel of the original)

I do heartily disagree with the person who said it was sad to watch dances that were 50 years old--why is it more sad than listenign to music that's 50 years old? I'm a huge ballet freak, especially of Imperial Russian Ballet and 5 or so years ago the Maryinsky (known during Soviet days as the Kirov) did a massive reconstruction of the 1890 original production of Tchaikovsky/Petipa's SLeeping Beauty. There's a fascinating book chronicling how this was done and the extreme, EXTREME controversy it raised (everything from people thinking it was politically in poor taste to revive a ballet that was originally a tribute to a now long gone imperial family, to a lot of argument about, even with notation recorded in the 1890s, how we are to even know what of the choreography is truly authentic--dance being something that's so hard to truly notate and keep). The reconstruction surprised many people though--it had become common wisdom among ballet dancers that back then things like costumes and scenery were done by hacks who just churned out their product--for instance--and it wasn't until Diaghilev's Ballet Russes that ballet started carryign about artistic design--however once seen on stage again people realized how artistically pure the original production truly was.

As magnificent as Tchaikovsky's ballet score was one thing many don't realize is he wrote it directly TO the dancing--not vice versa. Petipa actually sent him notes, all preserved, that were broderline ridiculous "4 bars of a light scherzo in 4/4 time followed by..." and he followed them to the letter. But people now treat the music as a sort of bible in most modern revivals and the original choreography gets none of that respect--it's interesting to wonder why... (and is a complex question that i have no clear answer for)

Wicked for the record I think I feel exactly the same as you about WSS (that's why I was so thrilled to see the London revival)--and as much as I appreciate and enjoy much about the movie I still get a bigger thrill, for instance, of watching the original cast perform Cool on Ed Sullivan (and yeah that dancing is 50 years old but the way Bernstein and Robbins collaborated on it I can't picture ANY movement for it working out to be more thrilling) Updated On: 6/21/07 at 03:25 AM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 3:26am

I'm enjoying the discussion too. I think someone needs to buck the Robbins estate, then. It's artistically indefensible that they're FORCING them to use the same choreography. The Robbins estate is literally forcing theater to stop being creative with one of its greatest works. It needs to live again.

I'm sorry, but to me the choreography IS the story. The problem is maybe with the execution of it of the performers/choreographers maybe not getting the meaning behind each and every move, however, I really do wish to see a first-class revival of WSS with Robbins' choreography and staging with people who do GET it. IMO, the choreography of West Side Story is as much canon as the text of the book and the lyrics and music are.

How many times have we seen Fosse shows being revised rather than revived and them falling short to the point where we wish we have seen Fosse's original staging/choreography?

I understand that people want to take a masterpiece and give it a new spin in a way that has never been done before, and I understand that they want to do that because people feel that the original staging now fails to deliver the impact it once had. However, if the choreography and music is as essential to the storytelling as it is to West Side Story, then you maybe really **** up one of the greatest pieces of theater ever.

Posted: 6/21/07 at 3:32am

"I'm sorry, but to me the choreography IS the story. The problem is maybe with the execution of it of the performers/choreographers maybe not getting the meaning behind each and every move, "

Exactly. To play Devil's advocate--for these shows where the choreography and staging was as part of the writing process as everything else (and I'd put Chorus Line, Follies, Company, Sweet Charity, all there) then if you're allowed to **** with the choreography you should have free reign to **** with the dialogue and music as well. Why does one get less respect? That's why the revisal of Cabaret for instance doesn't really bug me...

For the record I think they should be allowed to do what they want with the piece in terms of restaging but I also have a huge biase/doubt that it won't top the original (the way no restaging of Follies, Company, Sweet Charity etc does...) I'm also tempted to use the argument people do when they complain abotu opera companies and Shakespeare productions messing with things buy changing the setting, era, etc--why not just create your own work then that you can show how you want? Though I know again that's too simplistic an argument

Ideally we'd have readily available, well documented film records of thes eoriginal productions for people like me which I think would make the need to see them live, less so (back to Sleepign Beauty the Reconstruction performed by the Kirov/Maryinsky so far has not been filmed, and even is only sometimes toured, partly because it's such a massive production, huge numbers of dancer sand tons of fountains, etc--but also because they want to keep its appeal as a drawing ticket for peopel like me to see live... One day I will)

E
Updated On: 6/21/07 at 03:32 AM

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 11:55am

I don't have the time to respond to everything I would want to (will do that later), but amen to what everyone has said. I started considering the whole if Robbins' choreography is changed, then how different, in the case of WSS, is it really from changing the music? And as I already said, I will have a FIT if anyone tries to alter Bernstein's brilliant music.

And thanks for the link to the Sondheim forum, will check it out later.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 12:11pm

See, I don't like ballet for the same reason, so we're really approaching it from different sides.

I am aware that West Side Story is a show that was written, to an extent, around the dancing, but we should never be beholden to the original staging. Only the script and score. Although I think that the show would work better if Maria dies, (And Mimi in Rent, btw. Not to make it sadder, just to enforce the link with the original work that I feel is weakened by the new ending. Although Maria's living isn't nearly as bad as Maria's. My point is...) I'd never change that, because it's the story. The dancing is just how the story was told.

You mention Shakespeare originalists, and I think that's a great comparison. Richard Loncraine's "Richard III" or Baz Lurhmann's "Romeo + Juliet" are brilliant movies that are RADICAL reinterpretations of the source. If we were as beholden to the originals, we'd still have young boys playing the girl parts, and no sets or costumes, much less these fantastic works of art. And WSS is every bit as good as Shakespeare, and the reworking I want to see is far less extreme.

I'd like to add at this point that this is the best message board I go to. Real discussions and respect for opinions. I love you guys.

[dramaqueen2]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 6:59pm

Riff is a great role! congrats!
here's a hint. you die. you're the equivalent of Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet i believe. [don't throw stones if i messed that up]
You've got a few songs, the opening jet song [fun!] and, depending on how this will be directed, either Officer Krupkee or Cool.

definitely do the show, not only will it look great in your resume, it is a wonderful show, and my personal favorite! =)

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/21/07 at 8:11pm

and BTW wicked, I find the mixing much better on the movie version which is the main reason.

Posted: 6/22/07 at 12:53am

Edmund I appreciate your reply but don't agree--and dont' really get it--why dance is held to a diff standard for you (BTW if youd is like ballet because they're all dancing steps done years ago you migth wanna reconsider--very few productions of classic ballets use anythign close to the old choreography--nearly every company loves ot have them re-choreographed with each staging, for good or bad--and the music mixed up--New York City Ballet's new Romeo and Juliette by peter Martins being a classic example etc)


I guess I see the dancing for WSS as a part of the story and piece--hrmm. I'm not sure :P

Mark the mixing may be a bit better but I hate all the small lyric censorship changes for the movie (though the original cast album did change schmo to shmuck for the recording for censorship)

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 1:13am

I should have been clearer, I dislike ballet because of the rigid "this is the way it has to be" attitude, not with productions but rather with the production. If you try to dance outside of the set balletic ways, it's suddenly not ballet anymore. I see dance as free expression, and ballet sort of goes against that with its rigid training and technique.

Incidentally, my dream choreographer for my imaginary WSS revamp would be Rennie Harris.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:28pm

Thank you so much for the link to those WSS posts on the Sondheim board, Eric! I swear I didn't read what you wrote about why krup you needs to be preserved, didn't steal your answers, just a nice coincedence

But I love this post that someone made, I think it's very profoundly put:

"Similarly with WSS it is the fact that the kids use their own language that draws us into their world, and makes us more complicit in their actions."

Another thought I had was that...think of the majority of productions of shows in America...high schools, community theaters...I guess colleges don't have to be censored, but if the actual line was **** you, at least half, if not more than half of the productions done of WSS would be forced to censor it out. And in the way we hope that theater reaches young kids, it seems outdated, but I can imagine parents getting upset that the bad word is in the show, used precisely in the way they don't want it used, "**** you" and would be upset that there children were exposed to that, even in a professional production.

Someone also mentioned the fact that for the Jets to have come up with "Krup you' is something they would take pride in, being that clever. For the purpose of that song/scene, I definitely agree.

Edmund...I mean yes it's opinions, but...okay it's like, I might disagree with someone but I can understand their argument behind why they feel that way...I still honestly can't understand your argument how in WSS changing the choreography wouldn't be different from changing the score/script. Everyone has said the choreography is so much a part of telling the story as either, and if you want to preserve the story, which I assume is why you don't wanna touch the script, and no one better mess with Bernstein's perfect, brilliant score, I can't accept that it's okay to change the choreography..just in the case of this show at least.

For the record Eric, I do agree with you that this applies to other shows such as A Chorus Line.

I also don't buy that Maria should die because it ties it with Romeo and Juliet? I mean, here's a perfect example: many critics believe that WSS has improved the true tragedy of the story because of a major change: the fact that the message doesn't get unreceived/mixed-up because of a coincedence, which Shakespeare critics feel is a copout that doesn't lend it to true tragedy, the message in WSS gets mixed up because of hatred, prejudice, enabling it to be a true tragedy. That element certainly shouldn't be changed to be more tied in with R&J, so why should Maria dying be?

It's ultimately a stronger decision from Maria to not choose death. It is a copout, both for the writers, and for her. Certainly, her life is not going to be easy from here, but she won't take the easy way out. She chooses to live to see if she can create the place for Tony and her, even though Tony is not there to share it with her, on this plane anyway. It's inspiring, and very strong of her character, and I think it strengthens the show.

Mark, do you mean balance by mixing? Like hearing the parts equally? I'll be honest, I never listened to the soundtrack...just saw the movie, and found no purpose to, all i'd wanna do is listen to the OBC. The only particularly not great mixing I can think of in terms of the OBC is the offstage singer for Somewhere, she sounds very faint...but maybe that's intentional, since she represents a not-real place or vision or something.

And I'll say again (and totally agree with vietgirl), I don't think saying something should be reconceived is an excuse for something to be less than the original. And I honestly cannot imagine any reconception of WSS that wouldn't be less than the original.

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:52pm

Good thoughts--I don't have too much to say to them at this point really--

About the soundtrack, the only reason I'd listen to it would be for the film America, which as I've said I do prefer. I think even soundwise--on the new remastered WSS anyway--the recording is fabulous--it doesn't really sound any worse than most 1970s cast albums--which for a 1957 recording is really saying something (they were lucky too they JUST recorded it when stereo was becomign the standard--the sligthly older Candide recording for instance, which is otherwise brilliant,is mono)

E

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/23/07 at 1:45am

The Maria dying this is just my personal preference for how I like to adapt things. As an amateur writer, I like the ends of my adaptations to be as close to the original as possible. Just my thing. The ending of WSS works great, and I wouldn't dream to change it. I might have her pick up the gun after Tony gets carried off, and have the lights fade on her looking at it.

I think we've reached the perfect agree to disagree point. We understand and respect each other's points. To clarify my one point you had trouble with: The script and score are the story. That's what there is. You can read it and listen to the music and it's all there. The sets, costumes, orchestrations, direction, acting, and choreography are all part of the presentation of that story, and are changeable. No matter what the show is, or how that presentation was arrived at.

Pleasure talking with you guys. I suppose we can end it here.

Posted: 6/24/07 at 6:31pm

Of course you could take it a step further--the script and music aren't the story either but also merely the presentation of that story

But I do get your point--and it is relative

E

[justagirl2]

Posted: 6/24/07 at 7:34pm

I've just begun rehearsals for a production of West Side Story, and though I have nothing valuable to add to this thread, I have to tell you all how wonderful it is to read such educated and well-expressed insight on the show. Keep it up, I know I'm not the only one who's getting a kick out of reading all this!

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/24/07 at 9:16pm

Hmm...keep talking about West Side Story...that's a big sacrifice you ask justagirl

Just give me any WSS topic, and I'm off!

[MrAmySpanger]

Posted: 6/24/07 at 9:57pm

So i don't know anything that's happened in this thread because i didn;t bother to read any other posts than the first, but...
I think riff is a great part...even though he dies at the end of the first act. But you have 2 great songs (i think). Gee officer krumpke, however, is not one of Riff's songs in the show (it is in ithe movie).

Congrats!

Posted: 6/25/07 at 6:19am

Not sure what else there is about it to talk about though

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/25/07 at 2:27pm

HAHAHA. Me run out of WSS things to discuss, that's one of the funniest things I ever heard.

Let's see...I'll save its operatic influences for another post...

Well, I can go through a couple of songs detailing more of musical brilliance...so if I'll do that in later posts, I guess I'll start with...explaining in general the major elements Bernstein uses throughout the score, so once that's established, I can show how they're used in each song.

I'm taking stuff I wrote for my paper, which was for a teacher with more musical knowledge than most, so...I'll see if I can think of anything I should add to explain, but if anyone has any questions about what I'm talking about (in general, people, including myself, tend to not know what I'm talking about...) so yeah. Okay.

So I explained a bit about the tritone already. The tritone, for those who don't know, are 2 notes that are 2 full steps away: B and F, C and F-sharp, etc. They can either be played at the same time on different instruments, or juxtaposed next to another. The tritone is usually associated with dissonance, and, as I said, was known as the devil in music in the middle ages. It was generally avoided altogether, and was known as the most dissonant interval in Western music, until Bernstein (semi-consciously?) made it the central element of West Side Story. As I previously said as examples, the first notes heard in Cool are tritones, as is the very first thing you hear on the OBC recording: 3 notes, the 2nd one is held long, then cadences up to another note, and quickly cuts off. Those 2 notes, the 2nd and 3rd one, is a tritone...C to an F-sharp (in clarinet terms). Bernstein immediately prepares the listener's ear for the tritone, so a dissonant interval can be seen as harmonic to the listener.

The second important element of the score is the chromatically lowered seventh step. Let's see, how to explain this...think of a scale you play, C for instance. The seventh note of the scale is B. So a lowered seventh would be B-flat. So if a song is in the key of C and there's a lot of accidentals for B-flat, that's using a lowered seventh. Something's Coming (IN THE OBC, NOT THE MOVIE, ULGH!) actually ends on a lowered seventh that is held out. It purposely ends that way, dissonant, never resolving itself...waiting, like the song's lyric.

Oh god, then there's tone clusters made up of major and minor triads. God, it took ME a long time to understand what this means. I guess...it's...different instruments hold out, or play different notes...the notes are in the same rhythms, but clash, because some are in a minor key and some are in a major key. Many of the chords harmonizing the Jet Song are composed in this way. The use of these clusters has two important effects. First, the clusters sound similar to jazz, an American form of music, and kind of stamp the music with an American feel. Second, the clusters help unify the score, kind of like the tritone. It accustoms the ear to all these chromatic progressions and modulations, so the ear accepts it as not necessarily dissonant.

The triads also lead to a sort of polytonality to the songs (it seems like the song could be in more than one key; it's ambiguous). Like, in the Prologue...the first bass note suggests the key is C, but the second and last bass notes suggest the key is A. In measure 8, all of the instruments play a unison C, letting the listener know that C is indeed the key, but it still seems ambiguous throughout most of the song. At one point, the A also cadences into an F-sharp, and C, A, and F-sharp are very important pitches in WSS. WSS is the first American musical play to be centered around a central pitch.

The last major element are hemiolas. This rhythm juxtaposes a division of a beat/meter into three parts against a division of two parts. This most obviously occurs in America, think of the chorus: I like to/ be in A/ mer/i/ca. The i like to be is divided into 2 parts as I showed, but the mer-i-ca is divded into 3 parts. Does that make sense? Like the tritone, this also happens when one instrument can be playing in duple meter, and one in triple meter, at the same time. At one point in The Jet Song, the singers sing in triple meter, while the bass plays in duple meter. This occurs in reverse in Something's Coming--Tony sings in duple, bass plays in triple. This syncopation lends the song to its breathless anticipation.

So those are your elements. Once you understand those, I can go through the songs, showing how well they're used.

Nothing else to discuss Eric...you crack me up.

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/25/07 at 2:50pm

Go on :)


you should teach my Music Theory class, I've learned much more from you than I did all year from my teacher.