Sondheim vs. Porgy & Bess - YIKES!- Page 13

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 8/15/11 at 9:47pm

I should reiterate that I moved to Los Angeles in 1985. I haven't followed Equity battles much since then (or paid my union dues, but shhhhh!).

So I wasn't contradicting you.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 12:37am

Disney's Pixar's Tyler Perry's "Porgy & Bess."

You know you want it.

I do so want to make out with Norm Lewis

Updated On: 8/17/11 at 12:37 AM

[Freedomme]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 1:40pm

"I loves you, Ste-vie!"

And with that out of the way...

It's so good to hear you come out screaming, all piss-y and vinegar-y (well, more the former) about SAVING Porgy and Bess from the script doctors. God knows the holy fire that you torched them with could have been used with better result on your own productions. So, the question I have is: why the sudden descent from Olympus? Is it because these harpies..umm, women..umm, FEMALES were daring to make the same mistakes as any other male director? Seriously, sir, I understand the excoriation of Julie Taymor because, hell, the rehearsals looked like a triage unit. But is it now open season on ALL women who want to do good work in the theater? Yes, I will admit that for theater professionals they sounded amateurish and self-serving. But if I had a dime for every male director who KNEW the intent of the playwright...I could probably fund a musical myself. Hey...how about an all-black Merrily reset on the eve of the Obama election with Brian Stokes Mitchell as Franklin, and Audra and Norm Lewis as Mary and Charlie and additional music by Jay-Z and Kanye? No? OK. I guess I can wait.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 2:27pm

Remember kids: The true measure of anything is based on how much money it made.


This whole thing makes me wish I could get ahold of the reportedly very unsuccessful Otto Preminger film of PORGY AND BESS. Anyone seen it?

And lastly, I think a CARRIE/PORGY mashup would be ideal. One doesn't have enough cripples, the other doesn't have enough telekinesis.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 2:45pm

The comment about waking the baby is interesting to me and not nearly the red flag or cause for derision it seems to be for a lot of people on this thread. Growing up, I always accepted the conventions of a musical at face value. People sang because it's a musical. I didn't need any more justification than that. For the most part, I assumed that the characters don't even know they are singing, unless they are singing what's clearly a song in the world of the play. As an adult, I've come to find out that lots of people don't see things that way, and that the singing and lyrical-ness of the musical needs its own justification within the terms of the show. It's why Sondheim (I guess. I don't claim to speak for him) doesn't like his lyrics for "I Feel Pretty" and why they don't bother me in the slightest. That's what's funny to me about this. I think Sondheim - especially the Sondheim who wrote the book "Finishing the Hat" - would have to at least ponder that "Summertime" issue.

But I don't beleive every word Sondheim says to be true or the right explanation just because he's Sondheim. I admire much of his work, but don't get the best feeling about the man himself. And I don't believe that his work is a justification for believing he's always right on the money about everything he has an opinion on.

Sure, the powers that be on the new Porgy could probably take it down a notch, but at this point I think people on the other side of the fence could probably do the same. For god's sake - every goddamn revival of everything is usually substantially different than the previous major incarnation. It's just that Parks, Paulus, et al have been open with their motivations in a way that other production teams have not been. Ultimately, it won't matter if the show is well-received. And if it's not, then everyone will have earned their "I told you so."

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 7:39pm

^^^

Phyllis, Sondheim's erudition is amply demonstrated apart from the shows he has written. (In contrast, I took a class from Lee Adams in college and he's a very nice man, but not a musical theater historian. Students ended up teaching the history part of the class while Adams told very interesting and useful stories about his own work.)

But renowned scholars disagree all the time. You are certainly right that we don't have to agree just because Sondheim says something.

I still think the Times article just had so many stupid remarks in one place that it demanded a response.

To me, if a lullaby has to be in a low key so as not to wake the baby, then why are people singing at all throughout the rest of the show? (BTW, I repeated the same musical theater history course under critic Martin Gottfried. He argued that the film of Cabaret was a "breakthrough" because the songs were performed only as "on stage" songs and not as people singing their inner thoughts. He boldly predicted the convention of people singing asides to the audience would soon disappear. I thought he was an idiot and time proved me right.)

I know Sondheim criticizes "I Feel Pretty" in naturalistic terms and I find that unfortunate. The truth is he and Harnick (who first pointed out the alleged problem) employ a convention in which rhyme indicates intellect and education. So the problem isn't that Maria isn't true to her social class in real life, but that she isn't true to the conventions ("rules") Sondheim chooses to employ for a serious musical play. (In my experience, idiots rhyme like crazy in musical comedy, just as children and rappers do.)

ETA I think this long, rambling post needs a summary. In short, musical theater has always been a product of conventions over realism. When people talk like they don't know the conventions, we should be suspicious. Updated On: 8/17/11 at 07:39 PM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 11:12pm

I know I'll get smacked for this, but the production shots make the show look utterly boring. Is it just all brown all the time?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 11:15pm

God help me, I know I'm going to live to regret asking, but what does "brown" mean in this context?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 11:19pm

You won't get smacked for that. You'll only get smacked if you make up derisive nicknames for the actors whose names you don't remember.

[Tom-497]

Posted: 8/17/11 at 11:40pm

Someone asked about the Preminger 1959 Porgy and Bess. I just watched the two-hour version the other night (it can be found online). Except for the cuts and the changes from recitative to dialogue, it's pretty faithful, and there's very little in it that struck me as overly stereotypical or demeaning.

Unfortunately, it has just about the worst cinematography I've ever seen -- there is hardly a close-up in the entire movie. They just set up the camera for a medium or long shot, and then the scene gets played through without stop. Often, the camera barely moves, and there are hardly any edits within scenes.

This results in a movie so flat that it's hard to really judge the performances. Back when the film was released, Time magazine said it was like watching a football game from some distant spot in the stadium, and that's exactly right. It's no wonder that this version failed and that the Gershwins apparently wanted it out of circulation.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 8/18/11 at 12:49am

hahha, yeah I meant brown as in the color of the set I swear! haha.

[bobbybaby85]

Posted: 8/18/11 at 1:04am

Updated On: 2/20/18 at 01:04 AM