My feelings on Follies.......

[Livin' Legend]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 8:53pm

So, I recently saw Follies and I really enjoyed it. I LOVED the cast and production, but I felt the actual material was a little disappointing. I love Sondheim and Peters but I felt that Sally was a terrible character and the show itself was flat. The only character I felt for was Buddy and Phyllis. The music I was familiar with didn't disappoint me but some other songs did. Am I the only who felt this? I did not HATE it but I did not love it as much as I wanted to. 6 out of 10 I guess. Did anyone else feel this way?

[broadwaydevil]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:10pm

There's no rule anywhere that says that one has to "feel for" a character in order for a work to be good. I would tend to agree that it is easiest to be sympathetic for Phyllis and Buddy but Sally, the more controversial figure, is what adds a degree of excitement to the piece. Some of the greatest works of literature (and even one of Sondheim's greatest musical Sweeney Todd) have characters who not only do we not "feel for", sometimes we actually are so torn about them that we're not sure whether we want them to succeed or fail.

I like the character Sally mainly because I think she conveys a sense of lifelong struggle that is essential for Follies to work. There'd be no story without a conflict. Sally is that essential basis for most of the conflict in Follies: she makes Buddy upset and drives him to have an affair, she pulls Ben in every direction as he starts to realize how worthless his life has been, and she awakens in Phyllis a sense of anger and epiphany - she needs to start living her life for herself, not for some loveless husband.

I also must mention that I do feel a degree of sympathy for Sally. No, I don't think she's perfect. Yes, I find her manipulative, controlling, and downright cruel. By the end though, I must admit there's a part of me for a split second that almost wants her to win over Ben. No, it would never work but I can't deny the sympathy exists. Yes, everyone has their tragic story to tell through Follies but Sally has the most tragic tale of all. She's the only who's been struggling for 30 YEARS!! Also, unlike Ben and Phyllis, who I have reason to believe will put their differences aside and continue on with their lives, Sally has no hope of returning to normalcy. When she exits the stage, she leaves us little reason to believe she'll go back happily and enjoy her life with Buddy.

[SondheimFan5]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:17pm

This has been the biggest argument since 1971 when it first premiered. The book has always been weak and always will be.

[light_in_the_dark2]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:22pm

Yeah I just saw the show and did not like the book at all. I think if I was older I would have enjoyed it more but I thought the first act really dragged on and the second act was a bit confusing. The cast was amazing though and the songs were really good

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:33pm

In my opinion, Sally is not manipulative and cruel. She's delusional. In her world she's not hurting anyone. Until the end of the show, she's incapable of seeing beyond her warped "reality." That's mental illness. Not cruelty. I have nothing but empathy for Sally.

Updated On: 1/18/12 at 09:33 PM

[broadwaydevil]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:41pm

lightinthedark - hopefully there's another production you can revisit when you're older.

BroadwayFan12 - Well, that depends how we interpret her. I called her manipulative, etc. mainly based on "In Buddy's Eyes." I'm not sure if you read the other "Sally or Phyllis thread" but there was a lot of debate on whether or not she's lying through her teeth throughout the entire number. I tend to believe she's lying, though I certainly see the other side. If we interpret Loveland as the characters' true emotions, then I suppose we are left to believe Sally really has "lost her mind." Hence, why I'm sympathetic. I really think it's an over-simplification of the character to just say she's delusional and use that to explain the entire show. I think that only explains part of the story but good theatre doesn't allow for only one valid interpretation.

Also - my post wasn't a defense of the book, which I think is something of a hot mess. It was merely a defense of Sally's character development in the context of the show.

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:45pm

^You're right. I think she is being a little manipulative in "In Buddy's Eyes" because I believe she is knowingly lying to Ben to try to make him jealous. I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you personally. Not my intention.

[broadwaydevil]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 9:47pm

No problem! Nothing wrong with a debate about theatre. We're ultimately all here because we love it.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 10:12pm

I honestly can't understand being disappointed with a single number in that magnificent score. Yes, the "book score" (the songs sung by the characters as themselves as opposed to the "show score" of Follies numbers) requires a more educated ear; I certainly didn't appreciate those numbers as much at 17 as I do now.

But with a little understanding, "In Buddy's Eyes" is every bit as brilliant as "Buddy's Blues."

As for the book, a conscious decision was made to jettison most of the plot and create a "mood piece" rather than an Aristotelian beginning, middle and end. One is entitled to prefer the latter, of course, but I wish we could for once discuss FOLLIES for what it is, rather than for what it is not. Simply calling it "bad" doesn't address the fact that the book of the show tries to do something nobody had really done before with a commercial musical.

Successful theater artists (some would say geniuses) including Prince, Bennett, Sondheim and Goldman made the decision to drop the plot. Why do you suppose they did so?

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 10:33pm

Gaveston, well said. I admit I don't quite get your educated ear comment... Aside from Losing My mind, when I was 12 or so and got into Follies the main songs that really grabbed me were the 'book songs', In Buddy's Eyes being one of the top ones. Of course I had been playing the violin since I was 3, but I don't think that's what you meant by educated ear.

And completely agree about the book. I think when people say a weak book it really means they want more plot and explanation--which is fair enough but as you say that's not what Follies is about.

[AwesomeDanny]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 11:03pm

I don't really understand the complaints about the book of Follies. It doesn't really have a plot, but neither does Company, for that matter, and I've heard far fewer complaints about that than Follies. A Chorus Line doesn't have much of a plot, either (it's really just dancers telling their stories for most of it), but I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about it. Also, I think part of the fun of the character of Sally is not liking her. She is delusional and manipulative, but so great at it. But then, in the end, her life has completely collapsed, and it is truly tragic, even if she was manipulative. "I should have died the first time," she says (or should!). From the perspective of a young person, Follies is almost a warning to me to try not to keep follies from the past. In Ben and Phyllis's cases, they are able to move on, but Sally's tragic story shows the consequences of living in the past. People say that Follies gains meaning when you get older, but I think it still has strong meaning to a younger audience.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/18/12 at 11:37pm

I am middle-aged and I've never liked this show. Score 10 book 3.

However, my low esteem for the show has never been because I've found Sally or any of the characters unlikeable. Rather, it's that I find them complex, fascinating and sympathetic, with all their faults, while they are singing, and strained and insipid when they aren't.

Updated On: 1/18/12 at 11:37 PM

[AMH]

Posted: 1/19/12 at 12:15am

I'm in my twenties and the 2011 revival was my first exposure to FOLLIES. I had to see the show a few times and do a little bit of research to fully understand what was going on (i.e., who was lying to who about what), but I really enjoyed it.

The score is great, of course, and I think the interaction between the characters is enthralling. I'm looking forward to seeing future productions.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/19/12 at 12:56am

Lord, lord, lord. That woman is me.