BROADWAY vs WEST END

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 2:31pm

hello everyone? a big question, the most important one as well

Big, Dramatic, epic, glorious British musicals eg:
Jesus Christ
Evita
Les Miserable (I know it is french but never-the-less comes under "West End"
Blood Brothers

OR...

Cheesy, optimistic, sing-a-long american shows eg:
Wicked
Oklahoma!
The Producers

I think It comes down to... West End pretty much pioneered the sung-through musical while Broadway maintained the "stand up then sing" book musicals as it has done for 100 years. Im English and personally find the sung-through musical infinatly a better art form in every way!
but what do you think, can anyone convert me? does anyone else think that the old-american musichall show is out the window to make room for Limey tragedies with more mature orchestration and pesamistic subjest matter

[Matt_G]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 2:33pm

Well the shows you listed from the West End are all from the past 25 years or so. List some shows from the West End from the 50's or 60's that compare to GUYS & DOLLS, KISS ME KATE, CAMELOT, GYPSY, WEST SIDE STORY, FOLLIES.

Updated On: 12/27/04 at 02:33 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 2:36pm

And anyone who can claim that the West End pioneered sung-through musicals should really learn their history of musical theatre!

[Mythus]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 2:43pm

The Producers? Cheesy? Oh, yes, making fun of Hitler is just the tackiest thing I've ever heard of.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 3:58pm

With all due respect, Daniel3, you might want to learn a bit more about musical theatre history before you make grandiose claims like that. I mean, did you just completely overlook Sondheim??

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 4:15pm

robbiej - I totally agree with you on this. The British did not pioneer the sung-through musical at all. Andrew Lloyd-Webber made them popular in the late 70s-late 80s, but that was all. Boublil and Schoenberg had two sung-through hits, but they are not British, the West End just produced them as hits before Broadway.

I've been watching the Broadway PBS miniseries and it is so funny to see all the history repeating itself that so many on this board moan about being the demise of Broadway. It's pretty hilarious. For instance, someone said recently that rock musicals were beginning of the end of Broadway. The same was said of the introduction of ragtime to Broadway in 1910. And again with the popularity of serious book musicals that started taking over in the 40s. But I digress...

As for the British Musicals, there were a few occasional hits that crossed the pond from Sandy Wilson, Lionel Bart and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and the sensation that is credited to the producers of Mamma Mia, but the history of musical theatre will always be dominated by Broadway and the US. It is one of the only art forms to be adopted internationally that is uniquely American. Cats and Phantom are long-running hits, but they pale in the number of international professional, school and amateur productions of Oklahoma, Grease, Little Shop, South Pacific, Hello Dolly, The King and I, A Chorus Line, The Rocky Horror Show, and countless others.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 6:40pm

The musical is an American invention, and an American Icon.
The Brits have had a few successes, but they will never take away from the wonderful History of Broadway.
The sung-through musical is done to death, and the Brits are probably the worst at it. Have a look at Sweeney Todd (mostly sung through) or Caroline, or Change and you will see the Americans are better at this art that you claim is British.

WELCOME TO BWW.com!!!
I hope you like it here! I'm sorry if my first post to you sounds a little negative, I'm just responding to the topic, not to you.

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 7:04pm

All I KNOW is that ALW's Jesus Chirst Superstar stirred up a lot of contravousy, Evita is banned in South America, and there isn't a show in london (exept some cole porter stuff) that doesn't stir something in you, more than I can say for Annie Get Your Gun or any of those off-broadway 5-man shows with some moderato ballads and an opening company number.

What I am saying is not really a matter of Patriotism that has intent on offending people, "West End Musical" is a term used for sung through stuff about big events. Broadway musicals have come to represent smiles and suger.

I just thought, does anyone think "that" style of Broadway is as entertaining as....


oh forget it.


Im a musical composer (well, one day), but Im a very good composer

who wants to be my friend?

a backrub?

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 7:07pm

Now I need to take some Aleve.

If it doesn't cure my headache, maybe it will kill me.

Either way, I win.

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 7:07pm

Oh

America did not invent the musical, unfortunatly, those book musicals come right out of Guilbert and Sulliven, go back furthur, old english mistery plays using local songs, then Gay's Begger's Opera.

Posted: 12/27/04 at 7:20pm

Bah. And of course the West End has had some of the most cheasy and awful long running shows ever. Starlight Express is one of the better ones compared to stuff like TIME (which does have a cult following I know) or the continuing success of honestly crappy shows like Fame (which didn't even last long *off-Broadwa* or ever make it to Broadway), stuff liek Dr Dolittle, the Ben Elton jukebox musicals like We Will Rock You (notice in N America it's skipping Broadway for... Las Vegas. Fitting) and Tonight's the Night ( a musical structured around Rod Stewart songs? What the F*CK?). I admit to when I was in London I actually had a great fun night at Saturday Night Fever--but it's not a great show yet seems destined to run there forever.

Anyway Id love to hear you defend these shows as neither cheasy or "sing alongs"....

The megamusicals from England owe a LOT to Broadway--it's ironic that many Sondheim fans hate ALW's shows etc, as *staging wise* Trevor Nunn learns and has refined TONS of directing and staging ideas created by Hal Prince in his concept works from Cabaret on--ALW is such a big fan of course he got Hal to stage Evita and Phantom (and fought hard to get him back for Aspects of Love). Hal involved himself in both shows early on--for Phantom fighting to get a better lyricist (hey got Alan Jay Lerner--who died of course) but also helping structure much of the action of the show before staging it--and with Evita forcing ALW and Rice to make changes to the work as it was on the concept album. There was a great book on Hal Prince I had once which wentinto increased detail about how these British megamusicals (which is many ways, staging wise are concept musicals) owe a LOT to the Prince/Sondheim and Kander and Ebb shows

E

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 7:49pm

I am too as embarised by the Ben Elten shows as an english person as you are for welcoming Sarah Furguson (sp?) as an American.

Yuo have to understand Queen is a british institution, Im sure if "kiss" had a silly show it would run, not for any art, but for fun, I dont think Rod Stewarts one will run though, his voice is painful after a while

Posted: 12/27/04 at 8:00pm

True enough but I'm Canadian not American and have never embraced Fergie :)

E

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/27/04 at 8:10pm

I like Neil Young

and the band

and erm...

that woman who sings the taxi song...

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 1:02am

As a Canadian, I have no patriotic interest in musical theatre. But I'd like to say that some of the opinions expressed by Daniel3 seem rather ill-informed.

I do enjoy the sung-through musical, but just because the Big Four (CATS, LES MIZ, POTO and MISS SAIGON) and Webber employ it doesn't mean that the sung-through musical is a distinctly West End form, . As well, the idea that only the West End produces "Big, Dramatic, epic, glorious" musicals overlooks the fact that some of these musicals have flawed books, one-dimensional characters, clanky narratives and -- worse of all -- bombastic, repetitive, simplistic music. Andrew Lloyd Webber is regarded by most critics (on both sides of the Atlantic) as a bit of a joke; most of his musicals are all dazzle with no subtlety. I'm not saying all British sung-through shows are artless, but I am saying that it's not a black and white comparison between American and British musicals. I just spent the evening watching INTO THE WOODS on DVD, and it's every bit as "dramatic and "glorious" as anything to come out of the West End.

The statement "Broadway musicals have come to represent smiles and suger" reveals an utter ignorance of musical theatre history and the breadth of the genre. Sondheim musicals are anything BUT smiles and sugar. And how about CABARET? Or CAROLINE OR CHANGE? Or COMPANY, KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN, PARADE, RAGTIME, RENT....the list goes on and on and on. These are all musicals written by Americans for the Broadway stage (albeit KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN debuted on in London first, it was first staged in Toronto with the intention of going to New York). I think Daniel3 has a skewed idea of what the contemporary Broadway musical is; he seems to be focusing on the "Golden Age" of Broadway, but that is overlooking the 40-50 years that have passed since.

And when has the West End be equated with the sung-through musical?? I think more theatre needs to be experienced before one makes such grand generalizations.

Updated On: 12/28/04 at 01:02 AM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 1:12am

thank you, blue, for mentioning RENT. that goes right along with Paradox's "Americans are better at this art that you claim is British."

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 1:26am

You know, when I think of Cabaret and Sweeney Todd, I think of sugary sweet cheesy sing-a-long optimism...and when I think of Mamma Mia! and Bomby Dreams, I think of glorious dramatic epics.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 1:31am

you too?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 9:57am

"Evita is banned in South America"

Not true. It has been produced in Argentina and my parents lived in Buenos Aires when they filmed the movie. They used to see Antonio and Melanie eating breakfast on the terrace of their hotel every morning from their apartment.

"'West End Musical' is a term used for sung through stuff about big events."

Since when? A "West End Musical" is a any musical that runs in London's West End theatres. Just like a "Broadway Musical" is any musical that runs in a Broadway theatre.

[JBSinger]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 1:05pm

if you want to get "technical", you could trace the musical as far back as Opera buffo and the Italians. Mozart's MAGIC FLUTE is a singspeil with book scenes and arias. CARMEN originally had spoken sections between the arias. Gilbert & Sullivan, Offenbach and other operettas all seem to be structured like musicals. Leonard Bernstein called his musicals "Jazz Singspeil." In this world of Lyric Theatre, there are many sources that added up to the American Broadway musical. Somewhere down the line in history, we started distinguishing between high art (i.e opera) and low art (musicals, etc..). The Operas of the 1700's and 1800's all had the hit tunes of the day (just like the musicals of the 20's-50's). it's all labels anyway and everything is influenced by everything else. No art form is an island. The PBS documentary I believe was trying to make the point that the American's were the first to really throw the mix together and hone it into its intergrated form - whether its thru-sung or a book show. Furthermore, they wanted to connect the Broadway musical with the experience of NYC (like Wagner and Bayreuth). As for who is better than who - who cares! There wouldn't have been a Lloyd Webber without Richard Rodgers. No Boublil & Schoneberg without Lloyd Webber. No Sondheim without Hammerstein. No Hammerstein without operetta. No La Chuisa without Sondheim.

What we should be celebrating is the diversity of what we have to view now and throughout the world, both the classics and original work. There is something for everyone's taste. I hope you find your own voice as a composer and can "give us more to see" (to quote the master). All the best!

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 2:01pm

Everyone stop your bickering, you all sound like children. Right now the West End is the equivilent to LA, or Chicago, or anywhere where the shows get started before they transfer to Broadway. Personally Jukebox musicals make me sick, but wether you like them or not doesn't depend on your taste in Broadway, but you're taste in mainstream music. I enjoy TOMMY but despise MAMMA MIA, because I don't like Abba. And in both the West End and Broadway, they have long running muicals where I would persoanlly like to place a brand new one, and let things be produced that they have never seen. But whatever we have to do whatever it takes to keep the industry running. Trust me we'll get our next SWEENEY TODD, or RENT, JCS, or CAROLINE OR CHANGE. And wether it comes from the West End, LA, or Sweeden. It will morph the industry and when it does we'll accept it and enjoy it. Because Broadway cannot remain stagnet.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 2:17pm

"Right now the West End is the equivilent to LA, or Chicago, or anywhere where the shows get started before they transfer to Broadway."

No it isn't. The West End is the British equivalent of Broadway as a final destination for musical theatre. Some shows transfer to the US (and vice versa), but many do not. The West End is not a tryout location for Broadway musicals at all.

[sanda]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 2:44pm

I think you open a very interesting thread. I may not agree all your opinion but I would like to listen to more discussion about this topic cause I have some question about it too.

Hope there is not a lot attack about place or country or nationality. Focus on theatre, please.

[Daniel3]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 2:54pm

The West End makes more money than broadway, I'd assume that it would be a bigger prize for investers than broadway.

Broadway is a road in New York

The West End is a whole section of London with theaters just dotted around, I like the west end more personally

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/28/04 at 3:12pm

ummm... Broadway is not a road in New York. It's more a whole section of New York with theaters just dotted around...