Musicals and masculinity- Page 4

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 12:59am

toodramatic: I'm quite fine with who I am. But, I don't like the way everyone wants to stereotype gay people and straight people and theatre. All three of these things are way too complex to be oversimplified.

[toodramatic]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 12:01pm

But jrb why cant we have fun with stereotypes? If we are able to laugh at our stereotypes they fail to have power. Dont take them so seriously is all Im saying.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 12:26pm

I think it's serious when kids are being beat up, humiliated, and/or committing suicide. I think it's serious when the rights of a group of people are in the hands of the "majority".

Threads like these where straight boys are making sure the rest of BWW knows they aren't a fag for liking theatre are borderline offensive without the discussion that has been taking place that you are objecting to.

Yes, at the end of the day, we can all laugh at stereotypes. But, the reverence required seems to be lacking.

Updated On: 9/8/05 at 12:26 PM

[WickedJerseyGirl]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:04pm

It's funny. The two guys who first turned me on to MT in highschool were both straight. At our reunion last month it was great. One was married, the other engaged. We discussed the current shows and past obsessions and the fact that *I* was the one that ended up being queer. Everyone thought it would be them.

[sanda]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:13pm

I don't understand. When Tartaglia said he's gay, everyone praised. When London boy said he's straight, here cames "offensive, stereotype". What's wrong with you?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:25pm

No, it's not someone coming out as straight that bothers me. It's all of this masculine vs feminine talk, etc. It's that essentially it's a negative thing to be seen as gay for liking theatre.

And, this isn't the first thread to discuss this matter, so I admit that my comments and feelings on the subject are cumulative from prior discussions.

Hence, there's nothing wrong with me thank you.

Updated On: 9/8/05 at 01:25 PM

[sanda]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:28pm

You admit that you involved your prior opinion into this post. That is unfair to London boy ,especially those "stereotype" thing. So you are indeed wrong.

Thank you as well.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:33pm

No, sanda, because my comments aren't aimed exclusively to him. And, if you were indeed paying attention, I was directly debating this with too dramatic, though my comments weren't aimed exclusively for him.

So, back off.

[WickedJerseyGirl]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:34pm

I too hate when people make such a big deal out of the stigma attached to being "assumed gay" for liking musical theatre. The whole "being gay is okay just as long as no one thinks *I* am" thing pisses me off. It's just reiterating all of the opinions that there is something wrong with being gay. It's just like in the past few years when I have noticed younger people using gay as an adjective meaning stupid. Saying, "That's so gay," will set me off faster than just about anything else.

[sanda]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:42pm

Why should I back off? My post did not point to you exclusively as well. I didnot even post under you. Some gay men really are easily to be offensive. I am a women, and I did not feel offensive with "feminine" at all. Why you feel so angry about relate theatre with "gay" or "feminine"? Let's admit it. Yeah, it is stereotype and there is always exception. So what, 60% theatre goers are women. And in this board, a lot male members are gays. That is a fact. Well, if it is stereotype about "feminine" , it does have foundation to support. Is it only in America this way? Then why American theatre is this way? We can ask question, find the reason or live with it. Just using "stereotype" to deny it, is that what you want?

So we are even.
Updated On: 9/8/05 at 01:42 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 1:49pm

Well you sure were talking to me in your second post. And in it alluded that you were, in fact, speaking to me in your first post. So, sorry if like all gays I "easily to be offensive".

I think it's wrong to call the theatre feminine--it's both feminine and masculine. I think straight men and women can be feminine and masculine. I think gay men and women can be feminine and masculine. And, I abhor when people take the perceived stereotype and make it the rule. And, then guys feel like they have to make sure the world knows they aren't a fudgepacker because they like WICKED and WEST SIDE STORY. It's borderline offensive. Who cares? Grow a spine and be yourself is all I'm saying.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 3:36pm

The problem is affirming your heterosexuality because people tease that you like musicals, which is a "queer" thing. It means that you, as the hetero, are offended at being classified gay and that you must proclaim that you are a "man". You can say "not that there's anything wrong with being gay" all you want. Because clearly, you do on some level believe that there is something wrong with being gay.

[jasonf]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 4:17pm

I've been reading these posts, and thinking about this a lot. I'm a straight male theater lover, and I've been questioned about my sexuality because of that. I, of course, because it's true, tell those who ask or tease that I'm straight. What else am I SUPPOSED to say? Am I supposed to let people assume I'm gay because I like musicals? That doesn't make sense. That's like saying when my students ask me how old I am, and I tell them to guess, and they guess WAY too high, I'm supposed to let them think that. It's not because I'm OFFENDED at being called older than I am, but because there's no reason to NOT tell the truth. Of COURSE I'm going to affirm my age, just like I would affirm my sexuality if someone assumed I was gay because I like theater. That doesn't mean I'm offended by it. Rather, I don't actually UNDERSTAND the stereotype - but that's business for a whole other thread.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/8/05 at 4:21pm

Well, I wasn't questioning your correcting those people. And your doing that actually does help to break down stereotypes. But, it all depends on the tone in which one does it. And, some of the tone in this thread has been questionable.

[toodramatic]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 1:51am

Whoa Whoa...its like people are making me out to be some bigot. I am an adamant supporter of the homosexual lifestyle jrb...many many of my friends are gay. But its not who I am...I'm not offended when people call me gay...but I like to have fun with it when they do.

"I think it's wrong to call the theatre feminine--it's both feminine and masculine." As are sports.

Why are we trying to define everything?

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 2:10am

lifestyle? there is a gay lifestyle? thats kind of offensive.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 2:27am

even worse, zone, he called it the "homosexual lifestyle". Ick.

Sorry--but I don't have a homosexual or gay lifestyle. None of us gays do. We have the same lifestyle straight people have--we just happen to date or have sex with people of the same sex.

I don't think you are a bigot. But, I do think there are some icky ideas in this thread.

You ask, "Why are we trying to define everything?" Well, that is exactly what my statements don't do. They represent inclusive ideals.

[Kringas]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 2:48am

Why are we trying to define everything?

Perhaps because this thread started with someone worrying that his love of musical theatre would cast aspersions on his "masculinity" (which, as been discussed ad nauseam, is exclusive neither to heterosexuality or homosexuality).

Even if he had said it cast aspersions on his heterosexuality, I can see why it would be a topic for discussion.

I guess it's all relative. I always thought there was some basis for truth in this stereotype because, apart from my father (who actually helped foster my love of musical theatre), I've met far more gay men than straight men who really loved musicals.

And we can all pat ourselves on the back when we post on this board, but the fact is there is still a huge anti-gay bias in this country (I do realize the original poster is from London, but I'm just going with what I know) and it's not gonna change until people just get the hell over it.

How do we get the hell over it? I'm not quite sure, though I'm willing to make a few suggestions (some of which have mentioned before, on this thread and others)

1. Stop immediately equating homosexuality with femininity.
2. By extension, stop equating femininity with something that is somehow lesser than masculinity.
3. Realize there is no more of a "gay lifestyle" than there is "straight lifestyle."
4. Accept that there's always gonna be someone who thinks that liking musicals is "gay."
5. If you're straight, realize that it's not the worst thing in the world to be thought of as gay. By all means, assert your heterosexuality if it comes into question, but also question why you yourself are associating with someone who makes a huge deal out of it.
6. Finally, if you're gay, please please please stop using the term "straight-acting." It's demeaning to you and every other gay out there, and it's also a complete crock. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you've had another man inside of you (or vice versa), that's about as far from "straight"-acting as you can get.

Grr. I've run out of steam. Ditto what Jerby said.

Updated On: 9/9/05 at 02:48 AM

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 5:00am

"I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you've had another man inside of you (or vice versa), that's about as far from "straight"-acting as you can get"


I heart you.

[toodramatic]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 12:09pm

"If you're straight, realize that it's not the worst thing in the world to be thought of as gay."

Totally agree.

I used the phrase "lifestyle" incorrectly. I apoligize.

I am not your enemy, though, guys. Pick your battles wisely.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 12:39pm

You are not our enemy--but the ignorance out there in society and on this board is.

I just think the passionate reactions on this thread show that it is a deeply personal and non-casual issue.

[WestEndBird]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 12:51pm

straight men should be allowed to enjoy the musical experience without being pidgeon holed into a stereotype...all people should be able to enjoy musicals with no adverse comments spoken...i would LOVE to take my husband or boyfriend enjoy a night on broadway with me...

[sanda]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 1:46pm

re: Musicals and masculinity
"Posted On:9/9/05 at 12:39 PM

You are not our enemy--but the ignorance out there in society and on this board is.

I just think the passionate reactions on this thread show that it is a deeply personal and non-casual issue. "

Honestly speaking, aren't you the one who passionately reacted to this post. Don't you agree? Yeah, that reaction is deeply personal and non-casual issue, IMO.

I don't hate gay. But I hate someone who bring his own bitterness to everything. I prefer discussing things as it is, cannot appreciate the attitude to bring in personal problem into a topic that is not directly related.




Updated On: 9/9/05 at 01:46 PM

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 1:51pm

i think i understand where straight guys are comming from. i would be upset too if i were called something i'm not, whether it be gay, old(er), athletic, etc. it's just not who i am. imagine if you were gay and got teased by your gay friends about being straight all the time. plus, there's regular male teasing and then there's harrassing. if someone teased me about something, i'm fine w/ it. but i got called ANYTHING in an offensive way, i sure as hell would act up.

to all those guys complaining about gay bashing or whatever, it could be worse.

i come from mexico, and sexuality is a SERIOUSLY taboo topic, to the extent that gay man (or women) are not allowed to say they're gay. at all. universities will put on any show regardless of it's content, as long as it doesn't have any gay material in it (rent is thus, VERY taboo). in mexico calling someone gay is a serious insult.

be glad in america you have the freedom to be straight or gay as you please. i think in many ways, all cultures are the same and stem from the same place. the way things are in mexico is the way things were in the US a long time ago. be patient and wait for that "negative" attitude towards gay people to dissappear.

to the london boy, i understood what you meant about masculinity. i struggle with my femininity alot, because i refuse to be the stupid, submissive, giggly, bambi-eyed "woman" my culture expects me to be.

[Kringas]

Posted: 9/9/05 at 6:19pm

I prefer discussing things as it is, cannot appreciate the attitude to bring in personal problem into a topic that is not directly related.

Intended or not, this thread has brought a lot of other long-held misconceptions up, such as that gay automatically means "feminine" and that there's one "gay lifestyle." I realize people just parrot expressions they've heard and often no malice is intended, but even when those thoughts have been recanted or re-expressed, the original thoughts are still out there, and it's clear that for a lot of straight people (on this board and beyond) being called "gay" isn't something they can just shrug off. They've got to repeatedly look for "reassurance." If you are a man and you know you like musical theatre and you know you are sexually attracted to women, what more reassurance do you really need?

imagine if you were gay and got teased by your gay friends about being straight all the time.

I understand the point you are making wickedkiwi, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. When a straight person teases another straight person about being gay, it's generally to cast dispersions on their heterosexuality, because the implicit notion is that being gay is a negative thing. And that's something with which society still continues to beat us over the head.

You don't hear much about people being beaten, fired, losing their homes or their lives for being straight. I've never walked out of a midwestern straight bar and seen a bunch of drunken gays in a pick-up truck, waiting for a straight person to harass. I live in state in which over 70% of its voters voted to pass a constitutional amendment to deny me the right to marry whom I choose, something I was already able to do.

As long as straight people need reassurance of their heterosexuality at the expense of those of us are gay, all of this is directly related.

Updated On: 9/9/05 at 06:19 PM