BlueWizard goes to the movies: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN and KING KONG- Page 4

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 9:55am

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing King Kong this weekend. Misunderstood ape loves girl is a story I think needed to be retold again.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 9:57am

yeah, i cannot wait to see what happens at the end of that one. maybe they'll finally legalized marriage between overrated blonde actresses and huge apes.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 10:00am

I'm hopeful.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 10:04am

and grumpy.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:44am

Thanks BlueWizard for starting this thread, because it has generated some very thought provoking discussion.

After reading the most recent comments, I wish we could all agree that there are different kinds of films which fulfill different needs, and that each has its place and value.

As someone who sees and/or buys just about every gay themed movie, good or bad, (if only to support gay filmmakers despite their someimes dismal results), I need the happy ending films. I cry tears of joy every time I see All Over the Guy gloriously happy ending, to name just one other which comes to mind, in addition to the aforementioned Beautiful Thing and Maurice.

But there is also a place for the tragic love story, the doomed love story. Would West Side Story have such power if Tony had recovered? No, it's because Tony dies that people leave the theater more aware of the tragedy of gang violence.

In the same way, had Brokeback Mountain had a happy ending, it would lose much of its power to move people, to move them to think, to move them to change, to move them to take action.

The fact that Ennis is left alone at the end of the movie is essential to its power.

I believe that it's because of the tragic ending that many straight (and gay) people will think more about how important it is for gay relationships to be valued. I believe that it's because of the tragic ending that gay people today will see how much better things are for many if not most of us in today's world. I believe that it's because of the tragic ending that gay men in Ennis' and Jack's position may decide to make changes in their lives.

I absolutely believe that had the film ended a la Maurice, it would have remained a gay niche film, with very little appeal outside our community. People would have left the theater with a smile on their faces and not spent much time thinking about the film after the final fadeout.

I believe that we have only begun to see the changes in hearts and minds that Entertainment Weekly's Owen Glieberman has predited in his review of the film.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:51am

well said.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:53am

I absolutely believe that had the film ended a la Maurice, it would have remained a gay niche film, with very little appeal outside our community. People would have left the theater with a smile on their faces and not spent much time thinking about the film after the final fadeout.

Thank you for saying this. As someone (obviously) outside of the community, I absolutely agree. A friend had mentioned to me that she's been hearing it's a gay-themed movie, but that it's made for straight audiences, and I said that I think people are saying that because of the way the movie ends. If it had just had a romantic, sweet, happy ending, it very easily could've just been a gay date movie. But, I believe that the ending, and the themes presented that *foreshadow* the ending, are what allowed for it to go mainstream, and what will probably cause it to make a big splash; Jack's father's treatment of Ennis, the story Ennis tells Jack about the man who was murdered, and Ennis' vision of Jack's death, in my opinion, are the parts that make the movie more than just the love story -- it makes it a movie that is going to say something that I think many people who see this movie who are gay already know, but that people outside of the community NEED to know. I originally posted that as much as it's a comment about loving who you will, etc, it's also a comment on how what stops Jack and Ennis from being together can't be allowed to continue.

I think the ending is *absolutely* what's going to get people thinking, and thinking the way they should. My family is... well, less-than tolerant, and sometimes I worry for what they'll think of the movie, but after I saw it, I decided that I am going to take them to see it.

ETA -- I'm not sure the first part is clear. I hope I made sense...

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 11:53 AM

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:57am

I agree with luvtheEmcee. Honestly, I think the ending IS the reason why I'm recommending the movie to people. It should be interesting to see it with friends later this week and which them squirm restlessly at the numerous shots of sheep, but still leave the theater blown away.

[DG]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 11:58am

"I wish we could all agree that there are different kinds of films which fulfill different needs, and that each has its place and value."

Steven - I honestly don't think that we aren't agreeing on that point - at least I'm not.

My PERSONAL issue with BROKEBACK isn't its ending, it's in the choices that the characters make throughout the story.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:00pm

frankly, i think that the "gay movie for a straight audience" is just another marketing ploy. kinda like the for your consideration oscar posters that only show "straight scenes" with ennis and his wife, jack, his wife & the baby, etc.

if a narrow minded person even goes to see the movie, which i doubt, they're never gonna make it to the end to learn that "message" which they likely wouldn't "get" anyway from the movie.

it's a gay movie, get over it. oh, and i'm so not watching jake gyllenhaal get aggressively topped by heath ledger with ma and pa.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:00 PM

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:03pm

A "gay" movie, possibly. What's still so fascinating to me is that both Brokeback Mountain and Boys Don't Cry were admittedly inspired by Titanic (one of the most mainstream films ever). BM's poster was even created to resemble Titanic's...

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:03pm

I think it is partially part of the marketing scheme, yes. Because it's like "don't be afraid, go see it!" But after seeing it, I think it's for straight audiences in a different way -- not that straight audiences shouldn't be afraid of it, but that it's mean tot *say something* to straight, possibly even homophobic, audiences.

I suppose, to be picky, how much they get out of it depends on the level of closed-mindedness of the individual.

Maybe if I see it with my parents that'll give them a good reason not to bug me for a few days -- talking will just be too damned awkward.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:09pm

But it's precisely because they make the wrong choices (and it's pretty obvious that they're wrong, at least by the end of the film) that people seeing the film can be moved to make the right ones. Just to site one example of the impact this film will have, I believe there are going to be unhappily married men who will make changes in their lives because they've seen first hand the tragedy those bad choices can lead to. Had Ennis decided to leave his wife and children for a life with Jack, I think those unhappily married men would be saying, "It's just a movie. I could never do that. The happy ending is unrealistic. I'd just better grin and bear it." Because the film ends the way it does, the imact remains, hours, days, weeks, months after the film ends. Because the film ends the way it does, there will be people who say, "No more! I can't live this way any longer!"

(I'm waiting for People magazine to do a cover story on "Men Who Left their Wives after seeing Brokeback Mountain.")

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:09pm

the audience i saw it with was predominately straight. i pinged a few single gays, gay male couples, a gaggle of lesbians but mostly the breeders.

my favorite experience from the showing i went to was the very old woman who came into the theatre, farted, sat down behind us, loudly informed her husband that my partner has a big head, got up, farted every step she took and then hobbled her way to another seat.

oh, and she smelled like patchouli and had not a clue that she was farting as i think she was deaf.

so, that was my favorite memory from brokeback mountain. that, and the lesbian wearing a cartman sweatshirt that said, "give me presents!"

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:13pm

Well, I saw it at the same showing as Kirsten Dunst. So, ha!

I suppose she wanted to see her ex on the bottom?

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:13pm

That's hysterical, RobbO.

I love this film but have a feeling that I will grow impatient with parts of it over time. Maybe that's because it's so fatalistic?

Anyway, I feel like I'm in a thread about a film that's loved now (even by me) but will eventually be considered overrated. (Help! I'm stuck!)

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:14pm

A friend had mentioned to me that she's been hearing it's a gay-themed movie, but that it's made for straight audiences, and I said that I think people are saying that because of the way the movie ends.

I know this isn't what you intended to say, but I don't think BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN was made for straight audiences at all. Unlike a movie like PHILADELPHIA, this film doesn't pander to any particular audience, nevermind a straight one. That's what I found so refreshing about BROKEBACK: no polemics, no manipulative sentimentality, no knock-you-over-the-head message; just the honest truth of what it must have been (and is still) like as a cowboy in Wyoming.

I'd hate to bring MAURICE back into the picture, but it actually shares an interesting narrative convention with BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, and indeed with most storytelling in the gay tradition, in how these gay relationships seem to only flourish in the confines of some Eden-esque Green World space. MAURICE doesn't end with Maurice integrating his sexuality into his current life (of course, Edwardian society wouldn't accept that anyway); it ends with him and Alec escaping into a pastoral idyll. Likewise, Jack and Ennis never take their relationship beyond Brokeback Mountain. I'm looking forward to the day when these gay lovers follow the Shakespearean model of actually leaving the Green World in order to produce change in real society.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:14 PM

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:16pm

emcee, why do you think jake and kirsten broke up?

evelyn, a BM backlash is inevitable.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:16pm

BlueWizard, I don't mean to say that I think that's exactly what it is -- that's just something a friend relayed to me. She said that she's been hearing people say it's "a gay movie made for straight audiences." I think there is partial truth to the statement, but not that it's absolute.

RobbO, I guess she was having Jake withdrawals.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:16 PM

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:19pm

I think the truly narrow or closed minded will not see this movie. But the film will have an impact on those just a bit right of center, those who aren't virulently homophobic, but still aren't crazy about the idea of two men together. Those are the straight people seeing this movie whose minds will be more open after seeing it.

BlueWizard, you write very eloquently.
Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:19 PM

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:20pm

"That's what I found so refreshing about BROKEBACK: no polemics, no manipulative sentimentality..."

Interesting point. But isn't every star-crossed romance manipulative to an extent? I remember a slow, lingering shot of Jack smiling shortly before the scene where we learn of his violent death...
Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:20 PM

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:22pm

emcee, i've definitely heard that as well. it's just a way to make the movie palatable to a larger audience. i'm not disagreeing that many people are saying it, i just reject it. it's gay, get over it. if you don't like it go see "cheaper by the dozen 2."

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:26pm

My PERSONAL issue with BROKEBACK isn't its ending, it's in the choices that the characters make throughout the story.

What's truly tragic about BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, though, is that these two men simply lack the knowledge and a strong enough sense of identity needed to make the right choice. These are uneducated farmhands brought up to follow the lifestyle of wife and kids. I find it very difficult to judge them, because they simply don't know what to do with their love.

Interesting point. But isn't every star-crossed romance manipulative to an extent? I remember a slow, lingering shot of Jack smiling shortly before the scene where we learn of his violent death...

Yes, I'll give ya that (though this flashback is directly from Proulx's novella). But this movie certainly doesn't milk your emotions like other films involving a love story, which is why I found it more powerful in retrospect than in the theatre.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:26 PM

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:29pm

i think while that may be true of ennis, wizard, that your statements do not portray jack at all. he very much knew what he wanted but he never found the man to fulfill his dream with.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/21/05 at 12:29pm

I agree, BlueWizard, but in addition, what I found tragic was that they lived in a place and a time when it wasn't okay for them to be in love, because they were "supposed" to get married and have kids, etc. I feel like it's so sad because they're almost forced into those poor choices.

Updated On: 12/21/05 at 12:29 PM