LOOKING- Page 37

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/2/15 at 11:51pm

They are calling him the usual names in the comments section of various sites on the Internets. I know, I know: Never read the comments. But sometimes I can't resist.

One commenter, clearly looking for a context in which to forgive him, said that Tovey's comments betray an ugly battle many of us are fighting with ourselves and each other.

That says it aptly.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 12:22am

I think he erred on the side of losing. Many people do. But the battle goes on.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 3:35am

I just read the Guardian profile of Tovey and, frankly, I think it's very clear that he's talking about his career. He's basically saying that his persona and the way he 'reads' on screen has given him access to a greater variety of roles than say - I dunno - Chris Colfer or Sean Hayes. I've seen or read a few interviews with him over the years in which he's said - I'm paraphrasing here - that growing up in England, virtually all portrayals of gay men in British media were highly camp and exaggerated. He never saw someone like him - someone a little rough around the edges - presented as a gay man and kind of assumed there was no room for him in the, quote-unquote, "gay community". In his own, small way, I think he's kind of helped widen that tent a bit and that should be celebrated.

In the past he's also talked about how difficult his first few years out of the closet really were. It's kind of glossed over in this article, but he's said before that it took a long time - longer than he wished - for his dad to come to a place of love and acceptance. When he talks about his Dad forbidding some of his more creative aspirations as a kid, I don't think he's praising that style of parenting. In fact, I imagine if he had kids of his own, he'd let them explore.

He's well into his 30s and is looking back on a very successful career. When I read that article, I see him saying that although those experiences from his youth were terrible at the time - the knife attack; his father's harshness and, at times, cruelty - he thinks they undoubtedly shaped the man he became and, perhaps indirectly, shaped the kind of career he was able to forge. I do not get the impression that he wishes to shame, humiliate or speak ill of gay men with different gender expressions of degrees of masculinity or femininity. In fact, I got the impression that he's a deeply sensitive man who has a very clear eyed view of his place in the industry as an out, gay actor. And, for what it's worth, he's been out and proud for a long time now, he's often championing the work of gay artists, musicians and filmmakers via his social media accounts and seems to fully embrace and celebrate his orientation. I don't think his statements, his success, or even his pride in his career are acts of fem-shaming.

Updated On: 3/3/15 at 03:35 AM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 5:31am

I'm being that annoying **** who double-posts in multiple threads tonight, but I realized that with this Tovey article distraction, we haven't actually discussed the most recent episode and, well, we simply must.

I really hope HBO keeps the faith and renews this ratings-challenged show for at least one more season, because the most recent episode was easily one of the most perfect half-hours of tv I've ever seen. What a beautiful episode. Easily tied with s1e5 (Richie and Patrick's down-the-rabbit-hole all weekend date) and s2e1 (the magical forest party) for best of the entire series. Andrew Haigh basically produced a perfectly composed indie movie in less than 30 minutes and - miraculously - did it without anything feeling remotely forced or rushed. Yeah, the show occasionally stumbles, but when they get it right they easily produce some of the best television airing right now. The connection between Dom and Doris as they returned to their hometown and faced some demons and past regrets was so tenderly observed by both actors and Doris' last scene in the hospital with Malik got me seriously choked up, but really, the whole thing was perfect.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 6:48am

I do not get the impression that he wishes to shame, humiliate or speak ill of gay men with different gender expressions of degrees of masculinity or femininity.

I feel the same exact way. I don't get that impression at all. I relate to everything he talked about in that interview. I can especially relate to him feeling that he didn't feel like he "fit in" because all he saw was gay stereotypes being perpetuated all the time in the media. I went through the very same thing. So I totally get that.

This last episode has to be hands down the best episode of this season. I loved the interaction between Doris and Dom. Patrick was slightly less irritating.

And then I saw the end credits and exclaimed to myself: "Aha! That's why!"

It was written by the extremely gifted, talented and funny Jhoni Marchinko!

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 6:52am

I think what he said is as embarrassing as an episode of Looking.
I think his apology is as bad as what he said in the first place.
I think the kids in the GSA I advise, some of them who were fans of his, are tougher than he will ever be, because they dare to be themselves in a school that isn't so welcoming and prance down the hallway every day.


Updated On: 3/3/15 at 06:52 AM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 6:58am

I honestly think that's a ridiculous statement - almost as ridiculous as the one that the Academy Award winning actress in your avatar made backstage at the Oscars. But unlike her, I do not believe Tovey is speaking from a place of complete ignorance or unchecked privilege. Could he have more artfully made his point? Sure. But at the end of the day he wasn't trying to make some larger point, but just speak truthfully about his experience as an out, gay actor. He let his guard down and spoke from his heart and I admire him for it. The ideas are not mutually exclusive. You can both appreciate Tovey's examination of how his challenging youth shaped his persona and career as an out, gay actor who plays a wide variety of gay and straight roles AND celebrate the most flamboyant, effeminate, sassy gay kid in your GSA. One does not cancel the other out.



Updated On: 3/3/15 at 06:58 AM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 6:58am

I can't speak for Mr. Tovey but I don't understand what you mean when you say that he is not being himself because he doesn't fit a stereotype?

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 7:00am

You can both appreciate Tovey's examination of how his challenging youth shaped his persona and career and celebrate the most flamboyant, effeminate, sassy gay kid in your GSA. One does not cancel the other out.

THIS, THIS, THIS....a thousand times THIS! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

[HorseTears]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 7:03am

(Sorry, Carlos, I was refining my post as you were quoting it, but the general premise of my argument remains the same.)

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 7:12am

Tina Belcher won an academy award?

[HorseTears]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 7:21am

^This is what I see. Perhaps it's a glitch. Carlos? Anyone else?

[Kad]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 8:36am

Erik's avatar right now is most definitely Tina Belcher from Bob's Burgers.

I agree with Carlos and HorseTears on this one. Tovey's comments don't read to me as dismissive or putting down of effeminate gay men- he doesn't say that masculinity is what he prefers in partners, or what how he thinks men should act, or that effeminate men are weaker. I took the statement to mean that, "my personal experiences have shaped me into who I am- and since I now accept and like who I am, I am glad for them." Hardly the "MASC FOR MASC NO FEMS" message that people seem to making it into.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 9:05am

Oh, I misread you earlier. I thought you were saying that Tovey was demeaning femininity. You were saying that people who demean Tovey that way are. Which is fair, but I still think what Tovey said was kind of crappy.

As for HorseTears's read on Tovey and his daddy issues, I think he's off. I think Tovey is saying he created his presentation to the world (had he gone to drama school he'd have given in to his primal queeny urges) and then says "I thank my dad for that, for not allowing me to go down that path." I think it's taking a leap to assume that Tovey would raise his own children differently because of that, when the entire takeaway from the piece is that by not letting his mincing fagginess take over, he can have a wide and varied career.

I don't get those who want to shut down people who take issue with what Tovey said seem to expect us to pretend this is happening in a vacuum, and that his statements aren't indicative of the larger way that people, particularly other gay people, malign more effeminate men. I don't why it's always framed as us (ie, detractors) "not supporting" one of our own when... it's when of our own who doesn't seem to be supporting us.




Updated On: 3/3/15 at 09:05 AM

[Kad]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 9:41am

I don't think it's happening in a vacuum- one only needs to spend 10 seconds on Grindr to see that issue. Even in this case, people are using effimancy to demean Tovey for making comments that they allege demeans effimancy.

I don't see Tovey's comments as not supporting a larger community. And, let's face it, we are a community that is very, very quick to turn on an out public figure.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 10:01am

I don't know that taking issue with his comments is "turning" on him, though, any more than it's making him the "enemy." He gets a platorm that 99% of gay men don't, so I'm glad that when these things happen people WANT to talk about it and what it means.

I also don't see how being glad you didn't turn out a certain way doesn't say something about the people like whom you didn't turn out.

I agree people shouldn't use effeminacy to demean him for demeaning effeminacy (side note - I wonder why it's not effemininity), although - speaking just for me - when I give a "Mary, please" to someone who is disparaging the less butch among us, that's not meant to be a slam on Mary.



Updated On: 3/3/15 at 10:01 AM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 10:45am

"I also don't see how being glad you didn't turn out a certain way doesn't say something about the people like whom you didn't turn out."
Yup.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:09am

I've been in a dark place as of late and have probably been working from a feeling of resentment and negativity, so I'm consciously trying to embrace empathy. I'm going to go ahead and allow that Tovey probably had a bit of a f*cked up childhood with parents who would have made him get hormone therapy due to his incipient gayness. So...I get how his comment fits into his world. I think his Twitter-pology is somehow far more inarticulate than his original quote. I mean...why is a Twitter-pology a thing? How? I just...sh*t I'm sounding old...but seriously. Put out a sincere Youtube video explaining your comments. And please never say 'if you were offended.' Haven't we all learned from Giuliana Rancic how an apology should be? Words I never thought I'd write.

We've moved on from this, but Pal Joey, your first post on the subject made me think of the Brenda quote from First Wives Club:

'I'm saying this, with love compassion and the spirit of true sisterhood... you are full of SH*T!'

Girl...I love you...but no.

As for this week's episode, it was really a wonderful piece of storytelling that hilighted a problem for me: why is it we're able to tell more interesting stories about the gay man/straight woman dynamic than we are about our dynamics with each other? I know that's a MASSIVE over-generalization, but the most emotionally fulfilling moment of the series happened between a gay man and his straight, female best friend. It sends a rather thorny message that our relationships with our lady supporters are healthier than our relationships with each other. I know...I'm reading into that waaaay too much. But it did rankle me as I watched last night. And Patrick's ugly cry at the grave was just another in a series of deeply unhinged moments for the character. I'm finding the only way to resolve myself to his presence in this story is to pretend he's either dying of cirrhosis of the liver or will be killed in an impending terrorist attack. Watching from that vantage point makes him far more palatable.

[Kad]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:24am

Well, there was the suggestion that Patrick may have tried to kill himself as a teenager, too.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:27am

I got that...and thought, 'Well...that's an interesting bit of biography.' But it doesn't feel of a piece with either the rest of the writing or Groff's performance. This character is so much a cipher that he makes Bobby in Company look like Willy Loman. And it's terribly frustrating for me, as I'm a fan of Groff in general and desperate for this show to have something to say.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:32am

"he makes Bobby in Company look like Willy Loman."

And I pass the day's trophy to you.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:54am

I'd like to thank the Academy...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 12:03pm

This show may have the record for killing careers.

[BroomstickBoy]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 12:25pm

I need to rant and I'm not sure if it's fully relevant to the situation but I need to type it anyway.

He's an easy mark. It's all an easy target, and it's pathetic. It's easy to attack him for being phobic towards femininity in men, because it's as if he's degrading GAY GAY guys. If anything, he's envious but has to put someone else's wants for him above his own, or had to. It's easy to defend him because WE ALL LOVE the straight gay guys. The ones who don't look gay. The ones who don't read gay. The ones who don't sound gay. The ones who don't remind us of everything we're led to believe we are not and aren't worthy of equal acceptance BECAUSE we're not him. He doesn't have the femme looking baby-face, he's got all the right muscles in the right places, and he talks like a MAN, y'all! We love those guys! They're. Just. Gay. No big deal. NO big reminder that some people have to make it a challenge to be open with who they are. The judgement is there, but it's not his.

Updated On: 3/3/15 at 12:25 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 1:08pm

It's easy to defend him because WE ALL LOVE the straight guy guys. The ones who don't look gay

We do?