Patriotism: Would you die for your country?- Page 2

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:35am

I don't know, Margo. I think we give Monaco a run for its money now. Put all your money in hedge funds, and you pretty much don't have to pay taxes at all. Plus, if you're a CEO or whatnot, you don't have to deal with those pesky European business regulations, as the dereg snowball Ronald Reagan pushed 20-something years ago continues to gain momentum. And your government reps are a lot easier to buy here than they would be in a constitutional monarchy.

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:36am

"The people on Flight 93 died for the country, didn't they? "

that's a foolish statement. No, they did not. They had no idea that what they were involved in would be one of the worst days in our modern history. They didn't know they were only 1 of 4 planes hijacked in a plot to take out America's most important institutions. All they knew was that they were hijacked by terrorists and they needed to fight for their own survival. Not america's. Thier own.

I don't see how they died for their country by unfortunately being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, that sounds very crass, but that's what it is.

To die for one's country, to me, means some sort of sacrifice. You willingly give your life to protect something you believe in. Those people did not willingly give their life, they fought back, in an attempt to save their own lives and see their loved ones again. They did not sacrifice thier lives for us.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:37am

Very true, Calvin.

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:39am

They didn't know they were only 1 of 4 planes hijacked in a plot to take out America's most important institutions

That's not entirely true. Through phone calls, they knew about the other hijackings.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:39am

Margo, I guarantee Tazber will be complimenting you on your awesome, cool and genius posts after dismissing mine as "typical."

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:43am

"They didn't know they were only 1 of 4 planes hijacked in a plot to take out America's most important institutions

That's not entirely true. Through phone calls, they knew about the other hijackings."


ok. strike that from the record, please.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:45am

And it is usually NOT the affluent who are doing the dying.

[Yawper]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:46am

Pippin, the people on Flight 93 not only knew about the other hijackings, that knowledge is what drove them to take action. Prior to learning about the WTC attack the people on Flight 93 thought they were just riding out a conventional hijacking.

CapnHook, as I wrote before, it all depends on your definition of "your country" - some see it as the politics, some see it as the citizens, some see it as the legal rights or way of life, some see it as the land, some see it as the ideals

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:48am

"Pippin, the people on Flight 93 not only knew about the other hijackings, that knowledge is what drove them to take action."

Or so the story goes. In what Rudy 911 calls "hero narratives."

[Yawper]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 11:57am

"And it is usually NOT the affluent who are doing the dying."

but we also have the right to stand up against the power of the affluent if people would get off their butts

Why don't workers in the US have mass demonstrations and strikes like the French do? Instead the push backs here are often through the use of violence - labor strikes, urban rioting, one on one crime, bank and business robberies, bombings

I sure some of you are aware of the 1920 Wall Street bombing @ the house of Morgan

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:02pm

Why don't workers in the US have mass demonstrations and strikes like the French do?

Because Marie Osmond is dancing on the TV!

Besides, as Rush taught us, this is America. Anyone with dreams and drive can become wealthy. The rest are just lazy. And people who demonstrate against anything (except gay pride parades, abortion clinics and brain-dead ladies) hate this country, God and puppies.

Rush wins!

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:05pm

I learned a long time ago that this country is not willing to die for me, so I don't feel the need to die for it.

Until I get treated the same as my next door neighbor, I'm going to look out for #1...ME.

I'm still trying to figure out what is worth dying for considering this:


Does dying for your country matter any more?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:07pm

Yawper, please...

I don't need to riot to get my voice heard...what do you think blogs are for, for God's sake?

Get with the times, old man.

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:19pm

So, Namo and Margo, why haven't you moved yet?

[tazber]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:22pm

What I meant by typical namo was your inability to counter someone else's point of view without belittling them. It doesn't lend your comment credence, it just makes you look insecure.

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:25pm

I was wondering when that one was coming, EverythingIsRent. So it's, "die for your country or move"? What happened to the freedom of dissension you were willing to die for?

Updated On: 11/6/07 at 12:25 PM

[Yawper]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:25pm

With all due respect to their misguided souls, the deaths in Iraq are not for our country as I see it. They are at the whim of men who are self-serving and dangerous. All the generals and career leaders who tried to stand up for the soldiers have either resigned or been replaced. Many in Congress who we elected to stop the war are unwilling to take sufficient action for the self-serving fear of losing their power.

Soldiers are charged with following their leaders. We the voting people are responsible for the leaders we give them.

[Pippin]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:30pm

"Soldiers are charged with following their leaders. We the voting people are responsible for the leaders we give them. "

so, from this sentence, the logical outcome says that we, the American people, have indirectly sent these soldiers to die for thier country?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:33pm

Actually...yes. I agree with that.

We had the opportunity to change the course of this war in 2004 and Americans failed to do that. Mostly because they were so busy voting against gays and lesbians.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:34pm

Typical American thinking, we're Americans so we must just get to announce we wanna move someplace and they'll TAKE us because we're Americans and we said that's what we want to do, right? Guess what, that isn't how it works.

I was born here, so I GET to live here. I do not have to die to earn that right.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:44pm

I mainly stay to be close to my family and friends (which is the same reason millions around the world who COULD move if they wanted to remain where they are -- the place may be very flawed, even awful, but hey its home; but I don't delude myself that this is the best place of earth or anything), plus my work is based here (it would be a major hassle to get the needed credentials to do the same work as a non-citizen elsewhere, though I could do it if need be). Plus, living in New York isn't the same as living in most of the US -- it feels like it's almost a different country (a sentiment shared by several of my non-American friends who've always marvelled at how utterly different NYC is to the rest of America, almost as if its a different country).

Mind you, acknowledging the fact that the US is hardly the best country in the world for the non-rich, doesn't automatically mean I'm dying to move immediately or that I somehow mean I would die for someplace else.

I'm not dying for anybody. And one of the great things about this country -- that MANY other non-totalitarian countries around the world share, incidentally -- is that I am free to criticize it as much as I want without fear of retribution or having to leave ..... so pardon me while I exercise that freedom.

[Yawper]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:45pm

Pippin, these soldiers are dying for Bush and his cronies - and if you want to say they are dying for the country it's because we haven't done enough to take out those leaders responsible for perpetuating Bush's war.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 12:55pm

Oh Margo, I'm sure EverythingisRENT would agree when I point out that Jonathan Larson died for our sins so why shouldn't we?

Come to think of it, I Would Die 4 Apollonia.

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 1:09pm

Good to hear you acknowledge that, Namo.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying you have to either die for America or move, I just get baffled at the people who constanty whine, "Booooo, Bush Bad, War Bad, America Bad!" and still enjoy the benefits of living here *shrug* But you're right, you do have the freedom to say all that and more. Which is why I personally DO love America.

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/6/07 at 1:12pm

"Come to think of it, I Would Die 4 Apollonia."

LOL