Sweeney Todd is Bloody Good!- Page 3

[ljay889]

Posted: 12/22/07 at 9:55pm

Oh, well the biggest volume issue for me is the last note of PRIEST. They easily could have fixed it. Helena's voice is completely drowned out by Johnny on the note.

Updated On: 12/22/07 at 09:55 PM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/22/07 at 9:59pm

Her voice (singing and speaking) is drowned out by everything.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 12/22/07 at 10:02pm

Munk - Agreed!

[RetroBoy]

Posted: 12/22/07 at 10:43pm

I just got back from my second viewing. I was too swept up by the fact that it was finally made into a film to be truly objective the first time around because I love the musical so much. I wanted to wait for a second viewing before I posted my thoughts. Well after seeing it for a second time you can count me in the minority that isn't gushing over this film adaptation or ready to toss it every single accolade known to man.

It suffers from poor storytelling as far as the Johanna/Anthony storyline is concerned. The lack of a true resolution for these two characters was truly unsatisfying.

I missed all the choral parts in this wonderful score! I'm with best12bars on this one. That whole "God, That's Good!" sequence would have been so much better with the choral parts.

The Beggar Woman/Lucy was so underused. Not a major loss but still...

I didn't buy Jaime Campbell Bower as "Anthony" at all. He has a beautiful voice but he was too, too pretty to convince me he was
a sailor who'd traveled around the world.

Visually the movie was moving. I didn't find the blood disturbing , after all he *was* slitting throats, no?

Depp did a very good job as "Sweeney". He handled his songs pretty well. Although his "Epiphany" lacked something.

Dramatically Helena Bonham Carter was too one note. She was just in my opinion to low key in this role. Not one glimpse that this woman had a screw loose. Her singing left a lot to be desired. I couldn't understand one word she sang (and I use that term loosely) in "The Worst Pies In London"....and I know the score!

It's critical when telling a story through song that the viewer understand what is being sung. I'm sure those who have never heard the score to "Sweeney" had no idea what she was warbling on about. It was extremely disappointing.

Alan Rickman and Timothy Spall were great as "Judge Turpin" and "The Beadle" respectively.

When all is said and done this is the best possible big screen version of SWEENEY TODD we are going to get...like it or love it, take it or leave it.

[Glebb]

Posted: 12/22/07 at 11:02pm

As Patsy Cline's mother in SWEET DREAMS said: "You're just too mean to live."

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 3:01am

"The main problem I had with HBC's performance, as I said before, is it is not very volitional. There is no drive."

I think you put your finger on it. While I love her during "Not While I'm Around" I kept complaining to myself that I couldn't understand her Lovett, what made her tick. NWIA is the only scene where I really saw it as a whole.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 8:57am

Just to clarify, Helena isn't drowned out on the last note of "Little Priest." They're both singing it in unison, and it's actually Lovett's note that they're BOTH singing. Which means, oddly enough, that neither one is singing the melody note. A strange decision, but that's why it sounds like there's something missing. Johnny's blown off the melody, right onto Helena's harmony note.

I posted my ramblings about the movie on the Main Board, but since so many of you are "strictly OT," I wanted to share them with you as well, so here goes:

* * * * * * * * *

I'll throw my thoughts in here as well...

And they're really THOUGHTS, not so much a formal review. I'm not good at writing those, but better at writing down the ideas and emotions as they come.

Right now, having just seen the film a few hours ago, I'm stunned by it. A little in shock, a little repulsed (I feel like I need a shower), and both impressed and disappointed by what I saw.

*****SPOILERS******

None of the following was surprising to me, particularly after seeing and hearing so many clips, but I'll mention them just the same:

The movie looks like a graphic novel. A blend of "From Hell" and the original Frankenstein from Universal.

The Sondheim score sounds fantastic played by such a large well-recorded orchestra. Considering that Sondheim was paying homage to the film scores of Bernard Hermann when he wrote the original Sweeney Todd, it's truly satisfying to hear this music played by a full fledged "movie orchestra."

The violence was pretty damn disgusting. Particularly the demises of the Judge and Mrs. Lovett.

Wonderful things:

Helena gave the best acting performance in the film. Her singing was fine, but not great. No shock, I know. I thought she made Mrs. Lovett as real as possible in this "horror movie" world. Her tortured, devastated expression, when she realizes Tobias knows too much and he must die... this actually MADE the entire movie for me. The most haunting moment in the film.

Disappointing:

Johnny's acting was fairly "one (nice, impressive) note," but of various degrees of the same exact emotion. There were missed opportunities and layers in his performance, particularly when he realizes the Beggar Woman is his wife at the end. I thought he underplayed or internalized that revelation to the point that I never really felt anything for his Sweeney, ultimately. Even in the old monster movies, there was always one moment where we connected with the humanity behind the evil. I thought it took away from my impression of his work, and left me feeling rather cold. I did, however, like him bleeding all over the dead Lucy. That was a wonderful, tragic tableau and should have come AFTER we see the horror on his face when he realizes what he did. He actually sang "What have I done?" with no more intensity or expression on his face or in his voice than any other line thus far. That's really unfortunate for him and for the film as a whole.

The movie felt creaky, a tad slow, and only mildly fascinating until Pirelli and Tobias showed up. Everything kicked up a notch then. Once the violence kicked in, the film finally became something highly unusual. A horror movie musical. Something I have never seen before... and am not sure I want to see again, in truth. But it did what it set out to do.

I loved having Tobias as a child in this film. The kid looked and sounded right, and played most of his scenes very well. Again, there were missed opportunities, particularly at the end of the story. His menacing expression when he came out of the dark for Sweeney was truly chilling. But when he was initially locked in the bakehouse, his "frightened" expression was way too standard. I would have wanted to see him short-circuit there. Not just look scared. In the stage show, he emerges with his hair turned completely white. I wanted to see that here as well... and they should have kept his childlike, "Pack him, ****him, and mark him with a B..."

And I really didn't like just a simple fade-out before the credits started to roll. Tobias should have turned into the camera and slammed that oven door right in our faces. Into complete darkness. And we would hear it echo out over a dark screen, with an awkward pause, before the credits began.

Anthony looked like a buggy-eyed nerd, not like a young, handsome strapping lad who sailed the seas. Too fragile and willowy to have survived so long in those conditions. I think going "Heroin Chic" for him was a big mistake. I did buy his youthful age, and understand that he could have been all over the world at that point and never seen such a beautiful girl before... I just didn't buy this actor in that role.

Johanna was also a bit buggy-eyed but very beautiful. (Seriously, why do so many "kids" in Tim Burton movies have hyperthyroid problems?)

A missed opportunity was seeing Johanna go a bit mad herself in the asylum. And they trimmed too much of her music. They should have kept her part of the "Johanna reprise" at least, where she keeps singing "married on Sunday, married on Sunday..." If we'd seen her facing the horrors of the asylum as she sang that, it would have added a lot for her character and her performance.

As it is, Anthony and Johanna are usually played as stock melodrama characters. Take that "style" (which I don't even like) away from them, and there's not much left for them OR the audience to chew on. If they were going to cut "Kiss Me" they shouldn't have cut the awkward interaction between the two when they first physically meet. She has no idea how to behave around a young man, and probably got what little she knows out of novels she stole away from the Judge's library. It doesn't have to be played for cartoonish laughs, but it could have been a very bittersweet, slightly humorous, and painfully tragic moment for the two of them. And for us.

I didn't mind the Ballad of Sweeney Todd being cut, but I VERY MUCH minded ALL the choral singing being cut from the entire score. It was especially noticeable in "God That's Good!" I wanted to hear the people singing, eating, drinking and merrily enjoying themselves. It fits the scene! I also wanted to hear the inmates singing in the asylum. Somebody involved in this REALLY doesn't like choral singing of any kind and made it a curious "blanket rule" for the whole film. Bad mistake, and it made some of the energy of those scenes in particular suffer greatly as a result. Plus, it really kept the principle performers emotionally and stylistically isolated from anybody else "living" in the movie. It was actually less realistic to have no one sing but the leads in this "musical world."

All in all, I think Tim Burton and Johnny Depp accomplished what they set out to do. Whether or not it was successful sitting in the audience? Well... For me, only partially so. When their vision "worked" it really worked well. But primarily due to Depp staying on his very narrow, gritty, determined path as a serial killer, I didn't find myself being drawn into this version of "Sweeney Todd" nearly as much as I have by several others.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:09am

I agree with you on every point, b12b, except the choral singing. I thought it was a good decision.


And for the record, I also loved the film. I just don't think it's a 4 star movie.

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 11:09 AM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:12am

I think a 2nd viewing for many of us will produce both more affection for the film, and more understanding of its lapses. We'll love it for its existence, its passion and its respect for the original creation; we'll also damn it for shortcuts, simplifications and musical elisions.

With only one viewing behind me ... as I read this thread, I find the analysis of the truncated Anthony/Johanna relationship sound criticism. I would've been happy with 20 more minutes of film, and this subplot being clarified and illuminated with screen time. KISS ME isn't just a gorgeous quartet, ultimately, it also provides 'weight' to both characters, deepens the romance, and motivates much of their behavior in the final 3rd. We could've still savored Burton's overall vision and design with its inclusion, I believe.

SPOILER

And the begger woman's loss of a sexual come-on strips a layer from the character's humiliation. The crushed innocence was total when she devolved into a desperate, foul-mouthed whore. Now she's pitiful but a one-note victim. A "crazy" by definition more than behavior. Her attempts to provoke Anthony also had tragic irony -- i.e., he wanted to woo her daughter as an innocent, as this once innocent,now defiled woman attempted to have sex with him. Why remove all that? I think Burton backed away from a lot of the sexuality in the material. Frankly, "Kiss Me" can be staged with strong eroticism -- what, after all, is the title? It's not "woo me." The carnality in this material is there -- sex and death are tied together -- so why remove them.

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 11:12 AM

[Glebb]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:15am

I am a lad who alas loved this film!

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:32am

I think it's a very good film, and perhaps pointing out the problems I had with it softened my overall reaction.

I would put it on a par with the film of Evita. Very good, successful in many ways. But lacking in others. Both had leading actors who succeeded in convincing us they were the characters, but didn't wow us vocally (except for Antonio Banderas who DID wow me vocally). Both were immersed in their own incredibly detailed worlds. Both films were highly unusual in their content: A controversial, South American political bio-pic AND a musical? A horror film AND a musical?

*******MORE SPOILERS*********

Adding to my dislike of the decision to cut ALL choral music in the Sweeney movie, it separates the principles from the "extras" or "lesser people" living in that world. By doing that, it draws early and unnecessary attention to the Beggar Woman. Subconsciously, we realize that if she's singing, she must be important to the story. And it's very evident in the "God, That's Good!" scene. Reading other feeback in these threads, the people who didn't know that going into the movie figure it out primarily in this scene.

I also agree that it wasn't a great idea to remove the Beggar Woman's sexuality from her character for exactly the reasons you stated, Auggie. And I wanted to see Anthony and Johanna (in particular) struggle with how to behave in front "her first boy." It should have been funny and terribly sad to watch her "flap around" like a trapped bird, or a fictionalized heroine from a storybook or romance novel. Her only connection to love and romance.

I also missed Anthony and Johanna storming into the bakehouse with the police at the very end... and finding an insane Tobias cranking the grinder. Without that, we completely lose Anthony and Johanna at the end.

I would say that many of the trims that were made were successful, and helped the story move along. But some cuts only took away from characters or weakened plot points. That's where, as an adapter, you have to draw the line and figure out a different path other than simply removing it.

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 11:32 AM

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:35am

"I also missed Anthony and Johanna storming into the bakehouse with the police at the very end... and finding an insane Tobias cranking the grinder. Without that, we completely lose Anthony and Johanna at the end."

Me too. Having the voice over dialogue over black would've been perfect, but I guess Burton doesn't agree.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:40am

I thought it would have been a great ending (hearkening back to the stage show) if Tobias, after being discovered by Anthony, Johanna and the cops, had turned towards the camera and slammed the (now open) oven door, with a huge echoing bang, plunging us into darkness.

Obviously Sweeney himself can't do that, since he isn't rising from the grave "theatrically" to sing about his own demise. That wouldn't have worked on film.

But simply fading to black at the end didn't work too well for me. We need to know that the cops found the bodies, found the insane Toby, and that Anthony and Johanna are going to survive (if barely) the ordeal. That brings the tragic story to an end.

As it is, we don't know any of that.

Can you imagine West Side Story ending with Tony being shot by Chino, and as he slumps over in Maria's arms, we fade to black? You'd be cutting one of the most (if not THE most) powerful parts of the film. I guess I feel they did the same thing here.

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 11:40 AM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:53am

You hit the nail on the head.

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 11:58am

http://www.slate.com/id/2180406/nav/tap3/

First sentence of the Slate review, "An R-rated cannibalistic slasher movie might seem like an unlikely vehicle for an ode to family values, but Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (DreamWorks Pictures) is a defense of marriage."

I agree with the article, though.

[Cruel_Sandwich]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 12:03pm

I shall see it Christmas day.

[Glebb]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 12:05pm

Yay! Great Christmas present!

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 12:21pm

I know this isn't the thread for it, but since I seem to be posting ALL my thoughts on this movie, good and bad, in this thread, I might as well "play through."

Oscar predictions:

I'm not sure this is deserving of a nomination for Best Picture. And I think the Academy will ultimately have the same encompassing response to it as they did for "Pan's Labyrinth" last year. They will admire it for being daring, original, and shy away from it for being highly repulsive. Which means no Best Pic nod. But I think Burton is deserving of a nomination. Depp, perhaps too, although I'm not highly enthusiastic about it. It would really please me to see Helena get a nomination for Best Actress, though. It's well deserved. I don't think she'd win, but I'm very much hoping she's recognized for, IMO, the best acting work in this film.

As far as technical awards, nominations for Sound, Art Direction and Costume Design seems certain, and deserved. I could see it winning for Sound and Costumes too. Art direction? It was very good. Excellent... but I'm not sure it was the best of the year.


EDIT: One final comment, just to end on an "up note" for Glebby's sake. I think this is a SUCCESSFUL film adaptation of a stage musical, warts and all. I think it will do respectable business, and further the interest and passion for creating future film adaptations. It's a "plus" on the list of movie musicals, adding to the recent "winners streak."

And for that, I couldn't be happier.

No, I...

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 12:21 PM

[Perfectly Marvelous]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 1:15pm

I thought it would have been a great ending (hearkening back to the stage show) if Tobias, after being discovered by Anthony, Johanna and the cops, had turned towards the camera and slammed the (now open) oven door, with a huge echoing bang, plunging us into darkness.

Obviously Sweeney himself can't do that, since he isn't rising from the grave "theatrically" to sing about his own demise. That wouldn't have worked on film.

But simply fading to black at the end didn't work too well for me. We need to know that the cops found the bodies, found the insane Toby, and that Anthony and Johanna are going to survive (if barely) the ordeal. That brings the tragic story to an end.

As it is, we don't know any of that.

Can you imagine West Side Story ending with Tony being shot by Chino, and as he slumps over in Maria's arms, we fade to black? You'd be cutting one of the most (if not THE most) powerful parts of the film. I guess I feel they did the same thing here.


I had hoped for an ending more faithful to the stage, too. I agree with you, though, that some of what worked onstage could not have been realized on screen. It was a haunting ending, the last image of Sweeney craddling his wife; I felt her meeting him had been rushed and in a way, the "Don't I know you, she said" line lost a bit of sentiment because of that. I wished she would have met him earlier on, as onstage, during "No Place Like London".

Also, I agree with the end of "A Little Priest". I did not hear Helena at all. Nor could I hear her say "Can't we still get married?" (I believe that's the line) towards the end right before she meets her fate. However, I was able to understand her hurried "By The Sea" reprise against Johnny's sinister "A Little Priest" reprise.

Speaking of "By The Sea", I felt that was [one of] the strongest sequences in the entire movie; particularly because Depp's prickly pear Sweeney played a delightful contrast to Helena's cheerfully disillusioned Lovett. (The best part was at their 'wedding' and Sweeney has the most marvellous look of puzzlement of his face when told he may "kiss the bride"). It is all too painfully clear that this is Mrs. Lovett's dream, not Sweeney's, as his affection has since been sucked out of his very being. (Except, of course, his love for revenge and his beloved blades).

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 01:15 PM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 1:16pm

At B&N I was looking at the new coffee table book out on the making of the film, fascinated to learn that both Sondheim and especially Burton sat on Bonham-Carter, to enforce the living dead approach she took. She wanted to play "Worst Pies.." more as a come on to Sweeney, consistent with what she believedto be Lovett's MO in the desperate times; yet Sondheim, in the recording studio, forbad her to interpret the character as having a prostitution background or foreground at all. He said it's absolutely wrong. She goes on to say that Burton was so interested in a hollowed out, life-sized Lovett he refused to let her use her hands or even her eyebrows. He was obsessed with a gritty, camp-free take on the character. He got it.

I can only say that 24 hours after seeing it, her work has made an indelible impression. Love it or hate it, it's that memorable. In popular culture, it is the Mrs. Lovett that will live forever, and I dare say -- this board will smack me for this -- it may even subtly inform the way the role is interpreted on the stage in the future, too. I wonder if the outre music hall vaudeville turn will ever be AS fully embraced. Ms. Carter's emptied, dead-hearted Nellie has landed powerfully. It's daring, especially when it seems at times contrary to the text; it's a blackened subtext pushed into the foreground and sustained. If an actress returns to the Lansbury model, some of this woman's haunted disconnect from humanity may be used, too. Two moments: when she sings "I'm your friend, too, Mr. Todd" and tries to nuzzle him ... and of course, her comfort-providing yet holding at arms length handling of the child Tobias during "Not While I'm Around" are scary, sad, desperate, tragic. She plays her as a lost woman, whose brief financial windfall and shallow companionship with a destroyed man cannot change her inherent sense of already being dead. Daring stuff.

Updated On: 12/23/07 at 01:16 PM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 1:23pm

I agree that HBC's acting was spectacular. I just felt that some of her performance suffered a bit in the songs.

As far as Oscars go, I think the following are pretty certain:

Art Direction
Sound Mixing

Very possible:

Cinematography
Costumes
Sound Editing
Tim Burton

I don't think a best picture nomination or a nomination for Depp are likely. A nomination for Depp is more likely than a nomination for best picture, though. I believe the 5 nominees for Best Picture will be:

ATONEMENT
NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN
JUNO
MICHAEL CLAYTON
INTO THE WILD

Though the following are perhaps more likely than SWEENEY to take the slot:

THERE WILL BE BLOOD
AMERICAN GANGSTER

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 1:31pm

I don't think Lovett would ever stoop to being a prostitute. Her morals are too high.
Seriously, she is concerned about "legitimizing" her "rumpled bedding", totally obsessed with living a nice comfortable domestic life with gilly flowers on the table...and if she were inclined to do so, she would have done it long ago.
The fact that she keeps the fine silver blades, which you KNOW would fetch a very nice price, for 15 years in the hope that Barker would return for them speaks so much for her character.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 1:43pm

Fascinating to hear that both Sondheim and Burton "pulled in the reins" on Helena's performance, Auggie, and that her instincts (as well as some posters on these threads!) were to go bigger, flirtier and campier with it. At least in the early scenes.

Still, her final Mrs. Lovett "works." Even restrained. Because we see that she has a heart ultimately. Lost and damaged, though it may be. She starts out rough, eccentric and with no scruples or conscience regarding human life, or her own life. Through the course of the movie we see her fall for Sweeney, in her own damaged, lost way. And in that (best) scene in the film, when we watch her have a bit of an emotional meltdown with Toby as she comes to realize that he will die at Sweeney's hand (and her own enabling) for knowing too much. THAT is the real "horror" of this movie. This is a woman who has been grinding human beings into food for profit and to "please her man," and suddenly her conscience wakes up and devastates her. She feels compassion for a small boy. She suddenly "feels" the living Hell that she's in. THAT is a horror movie, right there.

Todd, on the other hand, as played by Depp, never has a heart that we can see. From the time we meet him on the ship sailing into London, until the end of the film, his heart has been "removed." He has no feelings other than pure contempt and revenge. He's a machine with a single purpose. To me, there are two ways to play the role that would work. Start out just as Depp does, and then in the final scene with Lucy in his arms, he should cave in. Realizing (as he even says in the lyrics) "What have I done?" That should be his HORROR moment. His defining moment of realization. We should see true Hell in his awakened eyes. The other way to play it would be for us to see his emotional attachment for Lucy all along. His agonizing and deep sadness over the loss of his former life and wife... and then have him completely close off by the end of the film. Detaching completely into madness and pure evil. In that scenario, the way Depp ended his performance would work as well.

But either way, you need a "journey" of sorts to really be effective. You can't go from "A to A"... or from "Z to Z," in other words. It's too shallow and doesn't resonate enough for any leading character. Particularly one as complex as Sweeney Todd.

[roquat]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 2:18pm

SPOILERS*********************************************************

Depp was marvellous, or would have been, if he had had someone to play against. Watch his sorrowful, resigned reactions during the Pirelli scene, when he realizes he must actually commit his first murder. When he finally lifts the razor to Pirelli's throat, it's a grotesquely tender, almost regretful gesture--and as he lowers the corpse into the trunk, we see him laying "Benjamin Barker" to rest at last. In his brief scenes with the Judge and Beadle, we can see traces of the courtly, well-mannered Barker, coupled with the keep-your-head-down humility he must have learned as a survival technique in prison. And the film comes to glorious life during "Pretty Women", the only true (perverse) love duet in the movie, in which Depp's and Rickman's voices blend and soar magnificently as the razor flutters closer to the Judge's throat--I actually started weeping, until Ms. Morticia-Addams-wannabe came flouncing in to bring me back to earth.

There's nothing at stake for her Lovett, from her first "A customer!" Her eyes never light up; I don't think she ever smiles. Whatever the interpretation, Lovett must dominate those scenes; she's the one working to bring Sweeney back to life and keep him from disappearing into his own sorrow. LuPone was low-key but calculating and menacing; you could chuckle in guilty complicity with her schemes. Bonham Carter just seems indifferent, not really there. We don't see a light-bulb go on when she comes up with her new pie recipe; we don't see her enjoying her new good fortune. There's a good idea in "By The Sea" of Sweeney being dim and unreceptive even in Lovett's fantasy life (he finally bestirs himself to put a hand on her knee, but he's so unenthusiastic she doesn't even notice) but SHE shouldn't be! The only time I warmed to her was during the scenes with Toby--it seemed as if Burton had left the room for a few minutes.

That was my big general complaint--nothing seems to be at stake. Burton gave us a cold, dead, anemic world out of "Night of the Living Dead." Anthony and Johanna are just as pale and recessive as the others; if we have no stake in their fates, if we don't feel any childish, Victorian dread for them, who cares? This isn't just a matter of their material being cut down; I've never been a fan of the blithering-idiot delivery most actresses give to "Kiss Me", but shouldn't Johanna be enchanting? Shouldn't we fall in love when Anthony does? It's easy to forget they're even in the picture, and they're just dismissed at the end (and, I say again, Sweeney would NEVER have just run out and let her go; that whole scene, which should be unutterably terrifying, went splat!) This is a problem in the stage version as well, when we're asked to empathize with them one moment and laugh at them the next, and it's probably better to depict them as ordinary people in danger. But they weren't depicted as ANYTHING; we never feel their passion, or the Judge's obsession, either.

[Raviolisun]

Posted: 12/23/07 at 2:32pm

I have one thing to say:

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOWED MS. LOVETT ON FIRE.