The True Hillary- Page 2

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 4:04pm

FACT: Brack Obama has more legislative experience than George W. Bush.

FACT: Barack Obama has more experience (of any kind) than Abraham Lincoln.

Care to comment on either of those things, MC?

Elections are not held to select "the Most qualified" Obviously not or we'd be repealing the term limit so that President Gore could stay in office right now.

And, if you are going to say that anyone who's against the war in Iraq is suffering from poor judgement than 80% of America fits that description right now.

[mc1227]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:18pm

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Of course 80% of the public is against the war NOW, but at the time of decision my guess is 80% were in favor of it. Why was Obama not in favor of it is my question. Hindsight is 20/20, but at that time in history with all the evidence presented, why was his decision not for war and what alternative would he have proposed?? No one has asked him this question and I would like to know so I could have a better understanding of his thought process. I'm not getting that understanding in the debates, so that's why I question his leadership capabilities.

If your barometer on Obama is that he has more legislative experience than George Bush, I think you better go in another direction there.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:21pm

NOW, but at the time of decision my guess is 80% were in favor of it.

because 100% of the country was lied to. SOme people were smart enough to see that even with the lies that it wasn't a good idea.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:24pm

I love how everyone is suddenly so smart about 2003.

I remember things being much different.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:25pm

Barack was smart in 2003 and he's smart now, its not sudden.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:31pm

No, plenty of people denounced going into Iraq for various reasons. But neither Barack Obama nor you knew there were no WMDs.

And there are those people who always believe war is about oil.

What I have yet to hear a smart answer for is why hasn't smart, all knowing Obama been voting like Kucinich? He sure votes like the rest of em.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:36pm

100 per cent of a couple of countries were lied to, if that's what you believe. Tony Blair and George Bush lied. I don't believe that. I believe there was faulty information from both sides (mostly, because Saddam lied to everyone), and no one willing to take the chance. The issue isn't why we went, but why we didn't have a plan to get out.

[mc1227]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:36pm

jrb for president!!!

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:39pm

"SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED.
SHE CRIED."

No, Judas..

YOU LIED
YOU LIED
YOU LIED
YOU LIED

[artscallion]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:42pm

"I love how everyone is suddenly so smart about 2003.
I remember things being much different."



I remember it well. I remember driving thirteen hours to DC to march on the White House in fifteen degree weather. I remember standing in a sea of people so vast that you couldn't see anything but people. Then again soon after in NYC and then Boston and on and on...

Jerby, do you think being in NYC at the time (if you were) might have given you a different perspective? I think support for the war was higher there. Being surrounded by pro war sentiment may have made the opposition seem less significant. I remember it as being quite significant.


ETA: I think many, many, many people did not believe there were WMDs
AMERICAN POPULAR OPINION OF IRAQ WAR

Updated On: 2/29/08 at 05:42 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:43pm

No, I was in Texas.

To be fair, you may still have a point. lol

I'll say it again--lots of people are anti-war all the time. None of you KNEW.

[javero]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:45pm

mc1227--perhaps Obama knew that the occupation of Iraq was premeditated.

Please surf over to the linked resource and note the neocon signatories.

Wolfowitz would go on to admit that the deal was sealed 2 days after 09/11/01 irrespective of any evidence of(or lack thereof) WMDs.
1998 Neocon Plea to Topple Saddam Hussein

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 5:47pm

I don't think any of us are denying that we were lied to or that Iraq was part of a conspiracy NOW.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 7:41pm

I'm not sure what the point is- Yes, there was wild popular support for the war in Iraq. Not unanimous, by any means. The Senate vote was 77 yes, 23 no. Want to see:

Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

More than a few smart people there, willing to take a stand despite all that popular support, inclduing my other Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. He's STILL hated by a lot of Illinoisans here because of it.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 7:55pm

OMG Ron Wyden voted nay? I was not aware of that. I love him more and more every year.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 8:48pm

Ok. I concede the point that there weren't a great number of people suspect of the war in 2003.

But that list does show that a number of smart people voted for it. Were they duped? Were they well aware? Maybe we'll never know.

In any event, I do wish you mothereffers would stop trying to make me like him more. It's working maybe.

[JudasIscariot]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 10:04pm

Oh, no idea if she did or not Diva. I just want to see you get rid of those pesky Obama fans.

[nygrl23]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 10:11pm

80% of the country was in favor of the war? You know, nothing felt right at that time--no one i know bought the reasons for war back then, most people felt that it was all one big orchestrated effort so a handful of people could attain some financial windfall. It was a very bad time. The president was on complete autopilot and telling everyone to take his word for it, when he couldn't, and still can't, prove his allegations (or pronounce too many words correctly).

[mc1227]

Posted: 2/29/08 at 10:58pm

War is never something to enter into for any reason except the threat of danger to our country. At that time, calculated or uncalculated, we were led to believe that we were in immediate threat of another attack. Therefore, many more people (including myself) backed the decision made by our, gulp! "leader" when our first instinct would be anti-war. I hate war, hate fighting and hate countries that enter into war at the slightest provication. Unfortunately, aside from the Middle East, we are the quickest guns in the west. (or east for that matter). As a former liberal, now moderate, I believe the anti war sentiment was mostly shared by liberals.

If you were not duped like I was, then I applaud you. However, if it were not a fake threat, what then? Maybe you didn't lose people you knew in the WTC like I did and could see it differently. I still believe Hillary is the right person for the job and she has my support.

Updated On: 2/29/08 at 10:58 PM

[nygrl23]

Posted: 3/1/08 at 12:26am

I never once felt any trust in GWB. None of it ever felt right. It felt orchestrated, from minute one.

[javero]

Posted: 3/1/08 at 12:29pm

i believe the dems were simply running scared for a couple of years after 911.

in the 02 mid-term elections, the gop kicked butt in both chambers of congress gaining the majority emboldening bush to advance the neocon agenda.

rush limbaugh, sean hannity, laura ingraham and others of that ilk were quick to paint anyone who opposed a pre-emptive strike somewhere in al queda land “unpatriotic”.

former cia chief george tenet and state dept head colin powell were the perfect albeit conflicted pitch men for the bush agenda.

same election result in 04 coinciding with the kerry-edwards blunder, the ouster of tom daschle a host of other dems in congress...bush/cheney/rove's message was clearly “you're either in with us or you're out!”

the gop even showed a willingness to eat its own. Bill frist's ambition landed him on the wrong side of trent lott & cheney despite his face-saving claim of wanting to return to his medical practice.

by 06, many americans were suffering from war, terry schiavo and name this week's supreme court nominee-fatigue. The gop was roughed up in that mid-term election losing the majority.

even with a majority pelosi and company still can't make any charges stick against dubya for the alberto gonzales/harriet miers debacle.

Updated On: 3/1/08 at 12:29 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 3/1/08 at 9:04pm

How upsetting in this country that the most qualified candidate (who happens to be a woman) will lose out to an unqualifed African-American who happens to be a man. Talk about more of the same!!

God, I know. I'm so sick of African-American presidents. We don't need the same, we need to elect a white president!

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/2/08 at 2:22pm

It's a lot less upsetting than the last two elections when the most quailified candidates lost to George W Bush.

[nygrl23]

Posted: 3/2/08 at 4:01pm

It's always funny when the Republican members of my family scoff at the possibility that Kerry or Gore would have been better at the job than Bush. At this point, Pikachu could have done a better job than Bush.

[uncageg]

Posted: 3/2/08 at 4:26pm

I kinda hate getting into political debates online and at the bar, but my thought is that Obama says he was against the war from the beginning and he didn't even vote. He can say that and really have no backlash. Even if he was for the war, his thoughts on it aren't "on record" so to speak. Unfortunately, Hillar's is and he can continue to slam her for it which, to a degree, I don't think is fair. I am not saying he is lying, but unless I missed something, we really don't have anything concrete to show he was against it. All we seem to have is his word. And If I missed something, I apologize. It is all starting to annoy me now. I am just over the Obama lovefest. I think it is all overshadowing exactly what we would get if he took office. I think he would make a good president in 8 years but not now. As a friend of mine keeps saying....Obama motivates. Hillary Navigates. And I am tired of her being slammed on the healthcare issue. Someone had to put it out there and because it wasn't successful she is getting slammed for it. Well duh, did we really expect it to be perfect? But it is out there to be worked on now, so stop slamming her and work with her to get it right. Ok. I'm done! Just a few random thoughts.