if a country is not worth dying for, how long will it last?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:24pm

just curious since it seems that there are very few who see the united states as worth defending.

so what are your predictions? 10 years? 20? maybe 50?

at what point will there be absolutely no people left here who are wiling to sacrifice their lives, if necessary, to defend the freedoms that they enjoy? the freedoms that citizenship in this nation afford them.

who'll get the spoils? the chinese or the islamists?

for the record, while i respect your right to have opinions differing from mine on this issue, i enjoy my own right to hold the opinion that you're a buncha f*cking spineless douches unworthy of the sweat off a soldier's balls.

to answer the inevitable question: i tried to enlist twice and was rejected for medical reasons both times.

Updated On: 11/7/07 at 04:24 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:29pm

The country is still worth defending, despite the efforts of the Bush Administration and the Republican Party to degrade the Constitution.

All will be well again come January 2009.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:29pm

Well, there will always be people joining the armed forces, so I don't think the reservations of BWW are going to bring down the empire.

Maybe if I lived in the same country you did, papa, I'd feel like it was worthy of defense. I live in a country where I'm told on a daily basis that I'm not welcome and that I don't deserve the same basic rights as the rest of the country.
Updated On: 11/7/07 at 04:29 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:30pm

My guess is people would go with Chinese because the cuisine is more familiar. I think they're just racist.

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:30pm

Plus, Phyllis, we couldn't defend it even if we wanted to do so.

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:31pm

It's a good point. I love reading WWII histories and often ponder the differences in that time and ours. Can you imagine a situation that would cause celebrities, politicians, and millions of "common folk" to rush to enlist in the armed forces- and VOLUNTEER for combat duty?

I don't think you're far off papa- if there isn't a major shift, we are indeed doomed.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:36pm

'the freedoms that citizenship in this nation afford them.'

It's here where we run into a little bit of trouble. Not all citizens are treated equally under the law. And that colors many peoples' views in regards to this country. You may think they are small concerns. You are welcome to that. But you are also someone who enjoys the full benefit of the rights some of us are hoping to receive at some point.

Of course, you've conflated 'defending a country' with 'dying for a country'. And they are not exactly one and the same. Soldiers are a remarkable breed of people, but they are not the only remarkable breed of people around. People who fight daily against injustice, receiving very little recompense, I consider to be heroes. Attorneys, teachers, outreach workers are also defending America. They just are not necessarily putting their lives at risk. I hold those people in the same high regard that I hold soldiers.

Defense of America can and does take many different shapes. Yours isn't the only way.

[LaurenB]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:37pm

Papa - I want you in my foxhole too.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:40pm

Robbiej just makes me wanna fly my flag!

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:43pm

ok, robbie, when the nation needs defending, you take your lawyers, teachers and outreach workers and i'll take a squad of seals.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:44pm

I'll take a squad of seals anytime. My place or theirs.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:46pm

Lovely. You ask a serious question. I post a serious response. And you get glib.

Lovely.

[Jonny boy]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:48pm

I agree 100% robbiej!!!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:50pm

Besides, this war has not been a good fight; it's an illegal war, based on lies, fought with reserves and a mercenary army.

Every civilization that fights its wars with mercenaries is soulless. That's another degradation that the Bush Administration has put the country through.

All will be well come January 2009.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:50pm

i'm not getting glib. at. all. i think you're the one conflating things.

let me change the title since what i meant was dying. and i think it's f*cking pathetic to equate a person who's willing to lay down their life (in the sense of actual dying) so that others may live to someone who's busy bitching about tenure or suing a corporation for a 30% commission or figuring out how to get more people on the public dole.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 4:54pm

"just curious since it seems that there are very few who see the united states as worth defending. "

I actually think the opposite of this is true. Look at the response of 9/11, the vast majority of people in this country were so gung-ho we attacked two countries with a third on the way. All without flinching. I think at some point we have to come off the "defensive" and try to pretend we share a planet with people of different lifestyles.


"at what point will there be absolutely no people left here who are wiling to sacrifice their lives, if necessary, to defend the freedoms that they enjoy? the freedoms that citizenship in this nation afford them. "

This makes me wonder about privatizing our military as in Blackwater. What if they staged a coup?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:00pm

If we're discussing dying for a country (and that alone), then my answer would be different. Very different.

Is there a scenario in which I could imagine dying for my country? Absolutely. Does that mean I have to sign up for the armed forces (which don't want me, by the way) to prove something? No (plus, I'd be denied for medical reasons as well, were they to accept gay people).

Now...of course I'm reading into what you've written...but if a Red Dawn scenario came to pass, I'd grab a gun and go down fighting. If a plane I was on got hijacked, I'd go down fighting.

But do I think the war in Iraq is a good enough reason to lay down my life? Absolutely not. And I don't think it's a good enough reason to ask anyone to lay down their lives.

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:02pm

Look at the response of 9/11, the vast majority of people in this country were so gung-ho we attacked two countries with a third on the way. All without flinching.

And a pretty big majority of people were supportive of War #2 initially -- until it became more and more difficult to mask how fucked up it was initially. Remember all the people running to military recruitment stations immediately after Sept. 11?

And again -- the military has made it clear it doesn't want my service.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:04pm

thank you, robbie. you may now have some soldier ball sweat.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:06pm

As I alluded in another thread, I believe the promise of America is worth dying for...even if the America we currently have isn't.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:09pm

oh i couldn't get through that other thread, i was loading the guns and i had to come down a bit.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:16pm

papa--how do you feel about countries that use mercenaries?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:17pm

i feel that civilian contractors who are working in protection details do not qualify as mercenaries, they qualify as rent-a-cops.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:20pm

Rent-a-cops who are getting paid 6 times what a soldier is making.

I don't know about you...but that outrages me.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/07 at 5:26pm

You say potato and I say...soulless mercenaries hired because no Republican children want to fight for their country.

Hessians. Nothing but Hessians.