why are Little & Big Edie gay icons?- Page 3

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 7:06pm

I saw the documentary and the follow up on sale together at Virgin last week. It's all over the place. It's on somewhere on one of the hundreds of cable channels at least weekly. Netflix has both documentaries. You can get it.

I don't think there was any question that both women were mentally ill. They wouldn't have cast Jessica Lange otherwise. Seems to be her role of choice.

[StockardFan]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 7:13pm

Thanks, JG. I haven't joined Netflix yet, but this may be a good reason to.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 8:36pm

So once again, how does living in squalor, with cats raccoons fleas in a collapsing building constitute a "triumph over society" for the Beales?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 8:47pm

omg, roscoe! because pennywhistle clearly said it was. duh.

who are you to judge their triumphant lifestyle choices? a damn child molesting serial killer that's who!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 8:48pm

A triumph over hygiene?

I've been thinking about this gay icon thing all afternoon. I think I agree with PalJoey. We don't really have the big gay icons anymore. I think Madonna was probably the last and she's a caricature of herself. Bette Midler's become something of a fuddy duddy. Cher is, well, Cher.

The more mainstream gayness becomes, I think the less a need there is to cling to those (often tragic) figures to project some sort of meaning about yourself on.

Not to mention the fact that we don't HAVE stars like Judy, or Marilyn or even Madonna anymore. Instead we have Susan Boyle, someone who EVERYONE seems to be projecting upon.

I had never heard of the Beales before the musical, either. I still don't get the glee this movie infuses in some people. It kind of nauseated me. At least in the play you know it was all fake.

[Jane2]

Posted: 4/20/09 at 9:32pm

I see a very sad and unfortunate lot in life for two deranged women who languished in squalor, neglected and isolated. I don't see anything triumphant about it.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 12:20am

Look, "triumph over society" is just an expression. It's not meant to be taken literally. It just means they did what they wanted and didn't really give a sh!t what anyone else thought. It's pretty simple, really.

This discussion was about why some people look at them as "icons." I'm trying to offer some kind of explanation.

What's your problem, papalovesmambo?

[SNAFU]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 12:36am

Heh, he's just playing the role of Doctor Sanson Carrasco tonight

[Q]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 12:59am

"Mentally challenged"? Who ISN'T?"

Well, I'm certainly the last person to argue that point.

I do wonder, though, at what point do any of us draw a line. From a societal standpoint, was their living in squalor and potential disease affecting anyone else? Unlikely. I suppose an argument can be made that the fire hazzard, and the demonstrated incapability to deal with that danger (which was the most disturbing aspect of the doc for me) could pose a threat to the area.

But my focus has always been on the family that left them there. It's an assumption on my part that they simply found it easier to turn their backs - and perhaps an unkind judgement. Maybe they were simply allowing them to live life as they chose without interferrence.

For myself, having dealt with a family member with different mental capacities - that would have potentially led to her ending up on the streets or in prison without familial help through the years - I know I couldn't make that choice.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 1:19am

You make an excellent point, and I completely agree with you, Q. That is probably the greatest tragedy in this story. How can anyone turn their backs on family members in need? I certainly cannot explain or defend their actions. And it's a very good question that is never really addressed in any of the commentary we see on anything related to GREY GARDENS.

In fact, I was a little perturbed when I read a recent article about one of Little Edie's nephews who criticized the documentary for being "exploitive" (his exact word, not mine). This from a man whose wife is selling jewelry and objets d'art under the heading "The Grey Gardens Collection" and publishing toney "scrapbooks" about the Beales. I don't begrudge anyone their choice, but this struck me as a tad hypocritical since they criticized the Maysles so severely. And the Maysles were filmmakers, not FAMILY!

[SNAFU]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 1:30am

The nephews, I can understand being just far enough away from Big and Little Edie to not really know what is going on. I myself haven't seen my nieces and nephews in 19 years (and two of them who are about to graduate High school, I have never met!).
It is Big Edie's sons I don't get. Did Phelan poison them that much against their mother?

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 1:33am

SNAFU, I believe that both Q and I were talking about the sons. I know I was.

I just mentioned the living relatives because of an article I read recently. My remark had no real bearing on Q's original comment.

[jeniferrenepatricia]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 5:00am

MsP- What was the title of the article? I would love to read it...

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 8:06am

so wait, they triumphed over society and we should not judge their lifestyle, but there's something wrong with the people who did not step in and keep them from having to live the way they chose to live while triumphing over society?

[Jane2]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:36am

I don't buy the "they did what they wanted" line of thinking. They did what they were sadly relegated to, and what they did was unhealthy and dangerous to them, and potentially to neighbors.

I guess the sick and homeless are doing what they want also, and triumphing over society.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:42am

I just finished working on a book about the Collyer brothers, and while their story is not the same as the Beales', there are similarities.

This book is fiction, mind, but persuasive fiction, and what I came away with was that people like this ARE making choices--and may enjoy feeling they're thumbing their nose at society--but they making these choices via mental unstability.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:43am

Are they gay icons?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:44am

There's no such thing.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:45am

I think Big Edie did what she wanted to do. She saw nothing wrong with the way they were living. I think Little Edie thought she had missed all of her chances and had no way out. She did feel like it was her job to stay and care for her mother. Then there was just enough mental illness to create that wreck.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:48am

the beales lived their lives as the people they were, not the people others "expected" them to be. in their own way, they triumphed over society (and all that word implies). and that is what i respect about them.

look, "triumph over society" is just an expression. it's not meant to be taken literally.

they also represent a sense of sadness that is inherent in every human life, but theirs is unambiguous because it is so extreme. we live our lives denying and trying to ignore the sadness, which is a necessary survival mechanism. (i always say that if i focused solely on all the sorrow and misery in this world, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.) when we read or see something about the beale women, it reminds us that we are all truly vulnerable in this life, no matter how much money, beauty, celebrity or strength we seemingly possess.
this doesn't really address the question about their being "gay" icons, but simply why they are so interesting to people in general.

this discussion was about why some people look at them as "icons." i'm trying to offer some kind of explanation.

mmmhmmm.

[Jane2]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:49am

I agree with you about little Edie, JG. And doing what you want to do while mentally "challenged" is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:51am

Well, I mean, I don't really think they ARE icons, maybe that's the problem. They certainly do strike a chord in people, but gay and straight, though, and I think Miss P has explained why they do, at least to some people.

[Jane2]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 9:58am

Updated On: 4/21/09 at 09:58 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 11:40am

Updated On: 4/21/09 at 11:40 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/21/09 at 12:50pm

Icons or no, mentally challenged or triumphing over society, it's amazing to me that their story continues to touch people and move them, even while it horrifies.

There's a large element of voyeuristic train-wreck watching here, a feeling of "There but for the grace of God go I" and even "Money and an upper-class background don't bring you happiness."

How lucky for them that their stories have been told by people as gifted as the Maysles and the writers of the the musical and the HBO movie.

In lesser hands, this story would have been a grislier version of Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.