A Strange Loop Mini-Tour- Page 2

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 5:04pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "It might also help me if people, instead of just telling me I am wrong and to shut up, could tell me WHY I am wrong. Perhaps then I would not feel the need to shout into the wind. I still have no idea what part of what I said you disagree with, Jason."

 

Everyone did that.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 5:10pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "It might also help me if people, instead of just telling me I am wrong and to shut up, could tell me WHY I am wrong. Perhaps then I would not feel the need to shout into the wind. I still have no idea what part of what I said you disagree with, Jason."

I'm not sure whether it's your idealistic "head in the clouds" view of this industry, your obnoxious need to make every single conversation on these boards about politics, your sadly-increasing-in-popularity "everyone who disagrees with my viewpoint is wrong" mentality, or some kind of annoying combination of all of the above, but you are very quickly becoming the most irritating poster on these boards.

Updated On: 11/6/23 at 05:10 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 5:13pm

They did?

All I saw was people pointing out the rules of capitalism. No debate or consideration for the need of a national theatre.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 5:20pm

"...this industry"

Industry = commercial enterprise

That's not what theatre should be. I will concede that I was making a larger point, aimed at more than just the producers of this one show. I will do as you all request now and retire from this thread.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 6:03pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "It might also help me if people, instead of just telling me I am wrong and to shut up, could tell me WHY I am wrong. Perhaps then I would not feel the need to shout into the wind. I still have no idea what part of what I said you disagree with, Jason."

Others had already pointed out multiple shortcomings of what you asserted. Why would I repeat what had already been said?

So I chose to respond to your comment about how stamping your feet provides a release.

And FWIW, profit will ALWAYS be a consideration.  Stockholders and investors demand it from corporations and board members of nonprofit organizations (I serve on several) are legally bound by duties of care, obedience, and loyalty that require we ensure the fiscal integrity and solvency of the organization. 

That can't happen if excess revenues (profit) are not generated unless shortfalls are covered by withdrawing from reserves, a short-term fix, but an unsustainable practice.

Updated On: 11/6/23 at 06:03 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 7:32pm

I'm coming out of retirement, just to say that my vision is of a federally funded national theatre. The shareholders would be the public. Every citizen of America. Millions, even billions, of tax is wasted every year. Our overblown weapons arsenal, for example. Sure, some voters might complain, but tough. In the grand scheme of things, we can easily afford proper arts culture.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 8:57pm

In fairness, Broadway is capitalism. It's great that there has been a push over the past several years for more daring works to appear on "the main stem," but the reality is that economically, it's probably harder than ever for these kinds of shows to succeed. Broadway tours are probably even worse off in this regard, which is why Production Contract tours are becoming less and less frequent, and we have what feels like a record high of non-union tours at the moment. 

Fortunately, ASL is a small, inexpensive show to do and it will get produced a lot regionally, especially in the aforementioned major cities like Chicago, Seattle, etc.

[Musigamist]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 9:43pm

While I agree with your sentiments for a National Theater, Jay Lerner-Z, and agree that the U.S. government could support more arts organizations; it's not like there isn't any funding—yes, overall arts spending per capita is lower than in several other countries which should change, but why aren't we getting more yield for the current input? In a way, the Kennedy Center is a sort of national theater in that it was set up by Congress and receives significant government funding. It is, but isn't, "the" national theater, but the U.S. government does subsidize it at around ~$40 million/year. For comparison, the U.K. government only gives the National Theater ~$20 million USD, and the Royal Shakespeare Company slightly less. 

Perhaps a dollar amount of funding isn't necessarily the primary issue, but more that the type of content being created isn't being shaped as well as it could be? Or just the sheer cost of producing and performing content here is prohibitive?

[BroadwayBen]

Posted: 11/6/23 at 11:53pm

At the risk of being flamed, and Tony aside, I know many people who didn't think the show was that good.   I found it fascinating but deeply flawed, and not a show I could recommend to many people.   I know this isn't a popular opinion, but perhaps many of the touring presenters felt the same way?   And given the audience trends at regional theaters right now, there isn't a huge appetite for really edgy material.  

[Kad]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 8:38am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I'm coming out of retirement, just to say that my vision is of a federally funded national theatre. The shareholders would be the public. Every citizen of America. Millions, even billions, of tax is wasted every year. Our overblown weapons arsenal, for example. Sure, some voters might complain, but tough. In the grand scheme of things, we can easily afford proper arts culture."

I’m sure Mike Johnson will get a bill to the House floor on that pronto. He and the rest of the GOP love funding the arts and especially love funding queer, sex positive art. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 9:35am

Should I be intimidated by Mike Johnson?

You're right, why bother even contemplating the idea. We should all just give up now. The GOP has won.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 10:00am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Should I be intimidated by Mike Johnson?

You're right, why bother even contemplating the idea. We should all just give up now. The GOP has won."

Nothing wrong with dreaming big, but if real progress is the goal and the big dream has little chance of succeeding, personally I tend to favor focusing on alternative and manageable ways of achieving the spirit of the dream and then rallying people to support those efforts to get some achievements banked and some momentum established.

As James Kouzes and Barry Posner found in their comprehensive research on extraordinary leadership, "Leadership is the art of mobilizing others to want to struggle for shared aspirations" (The Leadership Challenge, Wiley Publishing).

Kad rightly noted in an earlier post that many local and regional theater groups already are doing progressive and diverse productions.  One strategic question that might be worth exploring is how might existing groups/efforts be further amplified and supported so that they might extend their reach to areas where such groups currently do not exist?  Or, how might be initiated in locales that historically have been less hospitable to such programming?

Of course, questions like these have long been part of the agenda for many foundations, civic groups, and other like-minded organizations.  Such groups may be a welcoming outlet for for those here who are looking to help make further change happen. Indeed one of the groups on whose board I serve does a deep dive into this topic at least twice per year.

And if some sort of national impact is the only goal of interest, I'd probably look to see how I could get involved with the existing efforts of Americans for the Arts, the Association of Performing Arts Professionals (APAP), and/or write/call my representatives in Congress.

Updated On: 11/7/23 at 10:00 AM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 11:52am

I can hound my congressional representatives, support APAP... and still discuss the issue on a theatre board. These things are not mutually exclusive. Look, I clearly failed the "hearts and minds" challenge here, I can see that. I got off to a bad start by appearing to blame the ASL producers, when really I was just citing this as an example of why a national theatre is needed. The system as it is now is not good enough. A civilized society should be better. America is failing in this regard. That to me seems like a perfectly reasonable point, and my intent was good.

Musigamist, thanks for taking me seriously and making me consider it from that angle.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 1:24pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I can hound my congressional representatives, support APAP... and still discuss the issue on a theatre board. These things are not mutually exclusive."

No one said you couldn't. God you really are insufferable.  I really need to stop taking you seriously when no response is ever good enough for you no matter how thoughtful.  It amazes me how many people are oblivious to turning off allies, thus unlikely to ever achieve any meaningful change.

 

Updated On: 11/7/23 at 01:24 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 3:16pm

I don't deserve to be spoken to like that.

I've been nothing but polite to you, and have taken your observations into consideration. Despite your patronizing and belittling manner. You are smarter than me. Is that what you want to hear?

You have given me advice, Jason, now please let me give some to you. Treat people with respect.

[Ensemble1671017357]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 3:34pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I wasn't offering business advice. I was offering soul advice.

Don't invest in a show if you don't believe in its message, producers."

Broadway producers and tour producers are not necessarily the same investors.

This limited tour is all the current producers think they might be able to get their investment back from and, possibly, make a profit.

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 4:00pm

I accept that as the reality. It's just not good enough.

Most people here have probably already seen the show. Bourgeoisie board members who jet back and forth between London and New York, people who see every big-name show. The privileged, who then hold themselves as the authority on this matter.

It's just not remotely urgent to them, not at all high on the list of priorities. Sad.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 5:40pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: I don't deserve to be spoken to like that. I've been nothing but polite to you, and have taken your observations into consideration. Despite your patronizing and belittling manner. You are smarter than me. Is that what you want to hear? You have given me advice, Jason, now please let me give some to you. Treat people with respect.

This was as respectful as I felt your messaging merited.  And it is laughable that you call me patronizing and belittling when so many of your comments judge other people's for not being as righteous as you about elitism and capitalism, often ending with your trademark ... sad!

And no I wasn't looking to hear anything from you about my intelligence because a stranger's assessment of it means nothing to me, nor should it.  I was trying to provide information that might be helpful to you in your never-ending quest to change the political world via comments on a theater discussion board.

But enough.  How about we just agree to ignore each other?  Seems like the happiest of endings.

 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 5:56pm

BroadwayRox3588 said: "I'm not sure whether it's your idealistic "head in the clouds" view of this industry, your obnoxious need to make every single conversation on these boards about politics, your sadly-increasing-in-popularity "everyone who disagrees with my viewpoint is wrong" mentality, or some kind of annoying combination of all of the above, but you are very quickly becoming the most irritating poster on these boards."

Jay Lerner-Z,

First of all, I want to take a minute to apologize to you for this comment. I was in a mood when I posted this (my favorite football team lost on Sunday, and I was still salty lol), and probably shouldn't have been posting on any message boards at the time; let alone about a sensitive topic like theatre economics/privilege. I may not agree with much of what I've seen you say on these boards (or so it seems), but that still doesn't mean you deserve to be spoken to in this manner – especially since, as you said, you've been nothing but polite in your discourse. I've long thought that civility towards those we disagree with has been needed more and more by the day, but I did not walk the walk on that yesterday. So I do want to apologize for that.

Furthermore, I think what a lot of people are saying, in a roundabout way, is that you're thinking too big here. A large pizza is delicious, but if you try to eat it in one bite, you're probably going to regret it later. I'll be the first one to tell you that capitalism has its fundamental flaws, and that it is far from perfect. But I think the answer here is to not dismantle the whole system and start from scratch (which, frankly, is unrealistic in any of our lifetimes), but rather to chip away at those imperfections, in order to create a more just system for all. Capitalism isn't perfect, and I believe unchecked/crony capitalism is unsustainable in the long-term future. But I do think that, from a wide perspective, it's probably the best we can do. Because we're a nation founded on individual freedom/rights, and socialism and individual rights have seldom gone together in history.

In any event, I think you are passionate about making changes to create better conditions for theatergoers. And I hope you can use that passion to, little by little, craft a better theatre industry for all. Remember, don't eat the whole pizza in one bite.

Again, I apologize for my rudeness yesterday.

Updated On: 11/7/23 at 05:56 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 5:57pm

I don't feel anyone is deserving of being ignored.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/7/23 at 6:03pm

Apology accepted, BroadwayRox! Thank you.

[SamECircle]

Posted: 1/21/24 at 12:04am

coming here months later because i was googling for info on this, found this thread, and found Jay Lerner-Z being relentlessly thoughtful and correct on all points while everyone else snarked at them without considering the substance of their point. Wanted to be a voice for sanity so I'm posting this though surely no one will see.