Another "Rose's Turn" Question
Another "Rose's Turn" Question
#1Another "Rose's Turn" Question
Posted: 4/7/13 at 7:26pm
Based on Sondheim's description of working late at night with Robbins to develop "Rose's Turn", it seems they were somewhere in rehearsal by the time they wrote the number. At least as I understand Sondheim's telling, most of the number came out of movement and lyrics (including the ill-fated "Mama's Talking Soft") already invented and written.
So I'm assuming the number was not in the script given to Merman before she agreed to do the show. But I'm also confident in assuming Merman wouldn't agree to do any role that gave her only one song ("Together") plus a brief reprise in the second act.
Does anybody know what convinced Merman to do the show (other than the hiring of Jule Styne)? Did they just type "AT THIS POINT IN THE SHOW, MERMAN SINGS THE BIGGEST EFFING SONG IN THE HISTORY OF MUSICAL THEATER!!!!!!"?
Or did Laurents provide a synopsis of the emotions of the sequence? Or was Robbins' word good enough (irony intended)?
#2Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 7:37pm
Sorry to respond to my own question. But to put it another way, most of GYPSY's Act II belongs to Louise, as we watch her grow up (to be a woman) and down (descending to burlesque).
Merman was way too savvy not to notice that her own character steps aside for much of Act II and the creators must have been promising her some sort of compensation. I'm just wondering if anyone knows how they put it to her.
#2Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 8:39pm
Two really interesting questions, Gaveston. (And I have answers to neither.) First, we know that most of the score was written before Rose's Turn, but the whole of the score including Rose's Turn could have been completed before the cast was ever hired, no?
And second, it would always be fascinating to find out how much of any script/ score a given star is shown before they say yes to the project. What did Carol read/hear before she said yes to Dolly? What about Mary Martin re Agnes in I Do, I Do? Zero re Pseudolus or Tevye? Each of these shows changed enormously over the span of their gestations-- would be intriguing to find out. Anyone out there have answers?
#3Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 9:16pm
DOLLY was written for Merman, originally, and songs such as "Love Is Only Love" (IIRC) were cut when the role passed to Channing. But DOLLY hews so closely to the Wilder play, THE MATCHMAKER (there is a lengthy monologue in the play for almost every song), an actor would have known what s/he was getting into. At least dramatically. That show was famous for its troubles and revisions out of town, so I'm sure Channing had a rocky ride.
A lot of FORUM comes from Plautus and much of FIDDLER comes from Alechem. But I don't see Mostel counting numbers the way I suspect Ethel Merman did. Not because he didn't have an ego, but because he wasn't a singer and was probably just as happy with a funny scene or bit. (My speculation of course.)
***
Back to Merman, I should reread my published sources before throwing the question out here. According to Sondheim's FINISHING THE HAT, the number that became "Rose's Turn" was originally intended to be a Jerry Robbins ballet where Rose confronted all the characters she had met during the course of the story. (Sondheim himself says he can only wonder how an Ethel Merman ballet would go.)
And there was indeed concern over the lack of songs for Merman in Act II (even after "Rose's Turn" was inserted). Two numbers were added but almost immediately cut because of the length of the show. (The lyrics are in Sondheim's book.)
"Rose's Turn" was written at the end of the first week of rehearsals when Robbins suddenly announced that he didn't have time to choreograph the intended ballet. Robbins wanted to work after rehearsal, but Styne had another engagement. Sondheim suggested that instead of a ballet where all the characters appeared, they give Merman a song (aria, really) where pieces of most of the songs were heard. Robbins and Sondheim then spent 3 hours improvising the number, which Sondheim and Styne polished the next day.
So, yes, there was concern that Merman was disappearing in Act II; but apparently Merman was more concerned with proving herself a serious actress than with counting songs. And, as we know, the story was strong enough and "Rose's Turn" proved big enough that nobody notices the star has sung nothing but one trio for over an hour. (Not to mention that she has several great numbers in Act I that became standards.)
Updated On: 4/7/13 at 09:16 PM
#4Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 9:25pm
Actually, the original place holder for "Rose's Turn" was a "surreal ballet, in which Rose would be confronted by all the people in her life." Obviously, Ethel is not known for her dancing, so we should all wonder how that ballet was ever going to happen (maybe the Oklahoma! way, with a professional taking her place), but Robbins didn't have to time to choreograph it, so said it would have to be a song. Sondheim decided that it should be a collage of other songs from the show ("Some People", "Mama's Talkin' Soft" (cut), and "Everything's Coming Up Roses"). Ethel, who was against Stephen because he was just beginning, (if it weren't for her, he would have composed the score for Gypsy as well) was unsure about the song, but Stephen told her it was just a collage of other songs, and that calmed her. She was a triumph (so much that they changed the ending to give her a dramatic finish) and the rest is history.
Opps, started this before GPS edited her message. Sorry about the redundancy.
Updated On: 4/7/13 at 09:25 PM
#5Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 9:43pm
We were both posting at the same time, gossipguy, so thank you for answering my question. It's not your fault that I found an answer in Sondheim's book at the same time.
(Oh, and I'm a he. Not your fault; I know my avatar is of a woman. No offense taken, but I don't want you to feel that you have been misled.)
BTW, it was Oscar Hammerstein who insisted they let the audience applaud after the number or the crowd wouldn't listen to the scene that followed.
15 years later, when Laurents directed Lansbury in the role, he added the famous "silent bow", which Rose takes after the actual audience applause dies down. It remains the most chilling thing I've ever seen in a musical play. All those lollipops and roses come crashing down in one instant of madness!
#6Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 10:16pm
Sorry about the misuse in pronouns.
That sounds amazing. You are very lucky to have seen Angela. The closest I've come to seeing Gypsy live is the Bette Midler TV Version. Although I do have an audio of Patti's final show (her entrance instigated applause that rendered "May We Entertain You" useless as no one could hear it, and after "Rose's Turn" the applause didn't die down for a solid five minutes (longer than the remainder of the show!).)
#8Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 10:41pm
It's so fascinating to hear about these near-misses: I mean, let's face it — a ballet? With Merman? Thank the theatre gods that never happened, or the show would have closed that night. 
Mostel and FORUM... I'm sure everyone knows how he ad-libbed almost all his performances, driving everyone in the cast and crew to distraction, because you never knew what he was going to throw out there. For a show as tightly written as FORUM, that must have driven everyone nuts.
http://docandraider.com
#9Another
Posted: 4/7/13 at 10:51pm
Not as nuts as it drove me when he did the same thing with FIDDLER. A high point was using his milk ladle as a dagger and running around "stabbing" the people of Anatevka.
At the time (pre-Broadway revival of 1977), they said Jerry Robbins was the only one who could reign Zero in. Alas, we got the tour pre-Robbins.
***
Sean, you said a mouthful about the missing "Gypsy ballet". Because a ballet there would have certainly meant another big number for Merman in Act II (probably when Herbie walked out instead of the reprise of "Small World"), which would have turned her character into something else entirely. I think it's very important that Rose does NOT sing ballads about how sad she is.
#10Another
Posted: 4/8/13 at 12:11am
I have always admired Sondheim's idea of weaving together many song fragments. In the early cast album days the record producers often put together final medleys to close the album. Sometimes (as in OKLAHOMA! and SOUTH PACIFIC) the finales actually pieced together reprise segments that were otherwise unused on the recordings. On the LP of A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN the entire cast sing verses from key songs..even the leading male character who was killed off before the final scene of the play. Ethan Mordden jokes that these potpourri finales convinced listeners that most musicals ended "with a table of contents." Sondheim may have been picking up on that tradition and searching for a new and innovative way to reprise many of the musical bits heard earlier.
Merman was a bit uncertain but somewhere along the way she must have decided to trust the instincts of these highly intelligent writers. (Merman reportedly loved playing anagrams with her girlfriends...and we know that Sondheim was big anagram fan. One wonders if she was ever invited to join his circle. Nothing in print seems to indicate that Merman was ever friendly with Sondheim, though she always spoke about his contributions to GYPSY in glowing terms.)
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#11Another
Posted: 4/8/13 at 10:51pm
She trusted Jerry Robbins before she trusted the others. He had directed her and Mary Martin with remarkable restraint in their television duet on the Ford Star 50th Anniversary and he had done the dances for Call Me Madam.
By the time they came around to doing Gypsy, Merman trusted Jerry Robbins a great deal.
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#13Another
Posted: 4/9/13 at 6:47am
I assume so, but I don't know the original Alechem stories well enough to say.
Thanks for that info, PJ. There's no question that Robbins was the biggest name involved with the show. (What's ironic is that the final show seems to be the writers' vision more than the director's, at least as Laurents, Styne and Sondheim told the tale.)
#14Another
Posted: 4/9/13 at 9:50pmI'm sure Miss Merman was wise enough to know, by that time, that NO new project begins with a finished script, even ANNIE GET YOUR GUN or CALL ME MADAM. She was a pro and nobody's fool. That's why the "Miss Birdseye" moment generally came late in the game. Also, she knew from the beginning that the name of the show was not ROSE. I should think her one major concern for Act Two was that her final moment out-shined The Strip. And, boy, did it ever!
Well-well-well-what-do-you-think-of-that-I-have-nothing-here-to-pay-my-train-fare-with-only-large-bills-fives-and-sevens....
#15Another
Posted: 4/9/13 at 9:56pm
>> I assume so, but I don't know the original Alechem stories well enough to say.
The stories are quite wonderful, well worth reading. The yenta figures in a number of them, but I doubt that's a barometer for how much she got in stage time in the early drafts. My suspicion is not much more than we already see, but that's not really based on much of anything concrete.
http://docandraider.com
#16Another
Posted: 4/9/13 at 10:15pm
In Merman - An Autobiography, Ethel Merman takes credit for allowing the audience to applaud at the end of 'Rose's Turn:
Seven (songs) were placed so that we intentionally killed the applause, which would have broken the mood. On the first song, I exited after "But Not Rose." Blackout. Period. In the kitchen scene we worked against applause. Every number was like that. I was all for it because doing it that way made the impact of the whole production so much stronger. But on "Rose's Turn" at a certain point, Sandra Church, who played Louise (Gypsy) appeared upstage while I was beating my brains out. And I said. "Look, I have to have a finish for this. I've worked too hard. I demand I have a finish-'for me, for me, for MEEEE!' Vooooom! Then let her come in."
'Our whole family shouts. It comes from us livin' so close to the railroad tracks'
#18Another
Posted: 4/9/13 at 10:26pm
justoldbill, of course you are right that Merman was an old pro and knew how shows come together during rehearsals and out of town.
But they had to tell her SOMETHING. They couldn't just give her a script in which Rose becomes the secondary character in Act II and expect her to sign on.
I was just interested in what Merman was promised. As you point out, it's not likely she was ever going to be satisfied with Louise having the biggest number in Act II.
It may well have been something as simple as Robbins saying to her, "Don't worry. I'll take care of you." As PalJoey points out, Merman had worked with Robbins and trusted him.
zamedy
Broadway Star Joined: 6/27/07
#21Another
Posted: 4/10/13 at 12:53am
I love this. Stories about Merman and the roots of GYPSY never get old. Two of Merman's longtime friends, Tony Cointreau and philanthropist Jim Russo, recently appeared on 'Theatre Talk' and brought with them Merman's script from GYPSY. In "Let Me Entertain You," something was crossed out and Merman had written in 'Sing out, Louise!' Was that a change she was told to write in by Sondheim or Robbins? Did she come up with that herself? It makes you wonder.. along with the end of 'Rose's Turn' as we know it today.. how much of it was because of her and how much credit may have been taken away from her through the years because Laurents loathed her, Sondheim didn't exactly love her and because they were men and she was a powerful woman.
#23Another
Posted: 4/10/13 at 8:11am
Laurents didn't loathe anyone. He disdained people.
And Sondheim didn't hate her either. He may have said condescending things about her over the years, but both men have had a healthy respect as to the unmistakable power she brought to the role, even if they claimed that she was too stupid to understand what they were spoon-feeding to her.
#24Another
Posted: 4/10/13 at 7:12pm
Sondheim sounded downright gracious in the Feinstein program that aired the other night. It was the same things he's always said about Merman (unique singer, great low comedienne who took a risk with GYPSY). Maybe it was just the advantage of hearing it out loud instead of reading it in print, but I was struck with how laudatory it seemed.
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