Anyone OVER 'Hamilton' without even seeing it?- Page 7

[Comden Green]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 1:46pm

HogansHero said: 

You are really truly misapprehending just about everything, and offering facile objections to things that make no sense. 

First, all of our founding fathers did good and bad things. jefferson gave us our freedoms, but also gave us a slave-sanctioned version of them, and also gave us states rights, something that has done more bad for poor and minority folks that we have ever been able to overcome. Hamilton gave us the banks-the sine qua non of America's emergence on the world stage, but yes that system was corrupted in such a way that it hurts poor people and POC. But that sidebar does not alter the fact that Hamilton gave us federalism, which is the ONLY reason we have civil rights, Obamacare and the myriad of benefits provied to those in need etc. Without Jefferson et al we have no religious liberty or freedom of speech, association etc. Without Hamilton we have Mississippi. I encourage the discussion you are having here, but seriously don't let yourself get bogged down in some jejune platitudes that remind me of a republican debate circa 2016. You're better than that.

 

"Republican debate?   Can't imagine how you came up with that one.   Nothing further from the truth.  You must be misreading something in our back-and-forth.  

Nevertheless, it is my understanding that you are right about federalism and its benefits.   But in reading the Hamilton book it is clear that the financial system set up by Hamilton has not been corrupted.  Poor people were hurt immediately. And the system allowed opportunists to get very wealthy at the expense of the poor. 

As newintown said, perhaps that doesn't need to be in the musical but it is an important point, particularly in light of the creative casting decisions which imply a connection with the common people 

[Fantod]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 1:52pm

Hamilton is the weirdest thing for me, in that everyone at my school is familiar with the cast album. It's bizarre, like a teacher will be listening to it before class. I personally don't love the music, but I'll have to see it to pass judgement on it as a show (obviously).

[Kad]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 2:14pm

I am a fan and supporter of the show, and am thrilled that a musical- about history- by a writer of color- is so popular. But I think the honeymoon phase will end and more nuanced critical views of it as a piece of theatre and its depiction of history will come up.

[jkstheatrescene]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 2:47pm

Kad said: "I am a fan and supporter of the show, and am thrilled that a musical- about history- by a writer of color- is so popular. But I think the honeymoon phase will end and more nuanced critical views of it as a piece of theatre and its depiction of history will come up. "

I couldn't agree with you more.  I've been saying that since I saw it.  Plus, I also think people will begin to realize that it is a triumph of staging more than anything else. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 4:06pm

newintown, no snark was intended so I am truly sorry if that's how it came off. I hope you'll read the rest because I believe there is a less superficial view of all this that you deserve to apprehend.

Comden,the choice we had at the time was not between capitalism and socialism. The choice was between an agrarian economy in which upward mobility was not possible, and the economy we ended up with, in which there is such a thing as the American dream. But make no mistake, capitalism hurts poor people. 

Re the casting, you are both really misapprehending the dynamic. The casting is most certainly not "imply[ing] a connection with the common people." Just the opposite. It's about irony. Do you also think we have POC portraying slaveowners to imply a connection to African Americans? You're missing the point.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 4:16pm

Fantod said: "Hamilton is the weirdest thing for me, in that everyone at my school is familiar with the cast album. It's bizarre, like a teacher will be listening to it before class. I personally don't love the music, but I'll have to see it to pass judgement on it as a show (obviously)."

 

Everyone??? What kind of high school do you go to? The jocks' new favorite song: Guns & Ships.

[Fantod]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:05pm

Hyperbole is fun, but basically a lot of people who I'm friends with who have nothing to do with theatre listen to the album.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:14pm

Hyperbole? Sure, but not insane.....my high school too.  Crazy when I find other teachers that have gone and which students hope to.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:16pm

 

 

I believe we're talking about stringent social/political thoughts concerning a man who many find to be one of history's truly awful people, who (to re-state the idea) "helped foster a financial system that keeps most people of color powerless and poor in this country." That is what I find absent from the show.

 

Then write your own show about that truly awful person.

 

Obviously Lin Manuel Miranda saw a more complex and nuanced story in Hamilton than you and "many" do and chose these aspects of Hamilton's life to include. You are free to read--or to write and produce--your own version of Hamilton's story in which a truly awful person deliberately fosters a financial system that keeps most people of color powerless and poor in this country.

 

Sounds like fun.

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:30pm

^ ^ ^  it!!!!

[camilleon]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:32pm

I definitely felt the same way. I'm the kind of person where if I hear or see something over and over again I'm automatically over it. I had listened to a few of the songs before and I wasn't a huge fan. However, I just got done seeing the show for the first time and I have to say that it definitely lives up to its hype! I agree that the hype is a bit of an overkill, but it deserves it!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 5:36pm

Aye, there's the rub.

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 7:04pm

I saw it Labor Day weekend and it is truly a fantastic show. I will take the "over the top" hype given to this show and any Broadway show because I remember years when people were complaining that there were no good Broadway musicals. Like others have mentioned, the social media today has taken things to a new level and nothing anybody can do about that. Also, I remember every one going "nuts" over "The Producers" and I believe this was the first show to start with "premium" seats. 

[Comden Green]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 10:32pm

PalJoey said: " 

 

 

 

 

Then write your own show about that truly awful person.

Obviously Lin Manuel Miranda saw a more complex and nuanced story in Hamilton than you and "many" do and chose these aspects of Hamilton's life to include. You are free to read--or to write and produce--your own version of Hamilton's story in which a truly awful person deliberately fosters a financial system that keeps most people of color powerless and poor in this country.

Sounds like fun.

"

Wow.  Newintown were merely discussing the the effects of the financial system created by Hamilton. Neither of us advocated it being in the show.     And, as you say, since it isn't fun then it shouldn't even be discussed.   

But you should realize that leaving out that information doesn't make it more complex and nuanced.  It is less so.  

[Comden Green]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 10:45pm

HogansHero said: "

Comden,the choice we had at the time was not between capitalism and socialism. The choice was between an agrarian economy in which upward mobility was not possible, and the economy we ended up with, in which there is such a thing as the American dream. But make no mistake, capitalism hurts poor people. 

 

Re the casting, you are both really misapprehending the dynamic. The casting is most certainly not "imply[ing] a connection with the common people." Just the opposite. It's about irony. Do you also think we have POC portraying slaveowners to imply a connection to African Americans? You're missing the point.

 

"

Ok. I see your point about casting.  I should have known that. Though I'm not sure how the irony works with nonslave owners.   I'll ponder.  

But regarding the financial system, I don't see his as just capitalism but rather the particulars of capitalism that he chose.  I won't get into them here unless you insist but they did immediately create a situation where the unscrupulous became very wealthy by using knowledge of those details against those not in the know.  

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/20/16 at 11:21pm

comden, I agree we should not have that discussion here. But let me just suggest that what you are talking about is the corruption of the system. My parting comment on that prong of all this is that we needed the economic system Hamilton built because without it we are a third world country. How economic engines are easily corrupted (and that goes for non-capitalist economies too) is another matter but what Hamilton did is really a part of the alchemy that resulted in the creation of what we know as America. It's very easy (and that's what I was referring to when I called your buddy's comments facile and whatever else set him off) to underestimate the magic of what happened 200+ years ago. Without those "awful" men, we are Canada at best and Mexico at worst.

[A Director]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 3:06am

newintown and comden green - The following exchange makes me wonder.

"I wonder how Miranda, himself deals with those issues.

I suspect, Comden Green, that Miranda isn't interested in that kind of discussion or dialectic; he seems to me to be more of a sentimentalist (that may sound pejorative, but I mean it merely descriptively). That is, personality and feelings are what interest him more than social/political/financial theory (I suspect, based on his work).

I don't know if it's you intension,  but, to me, your comments come across as patronizing to Lin-Manuel Miranda. I'm picking up a vibe that says, "Poor little POC, you don''t understand Alexander Hamilton.  We middle-aged white men know better than you.  You can't help it because you are a poor little POC."

[RingOfKeys2]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 3:59am

Haters gonna hate. Hamilton is the dopest new musical in years. It deserves all the hype it gets; the experience inside the Rodgers Theater is unparalleled to anything I've gotten from any other work of art. It is electric, explosive, hard to articulate.....I saw it in September and I am still finding the words to express my thoughts on it. But at the end of the day the work speaks for itself. It also comes down to personal relationship to the work, meaning that I listen to some of the songs and tear up effortlessly because the album has been on repeat since it came out. That's me, I have an obsession with Hamilton that doesn't seem to be going away. I know I am not alone here. If it's not your thing that's fine, but you can't try to diminish the raves of this historic show. I mean you can try, but I'll say it again, the work speaks for itself. 

[JM226]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 8:59am

all creative work is subjective. the same people who obsess over hamilton also bash other plays and musicals that the people who bash hamilton obsess over. no one person's opinion isn't valid. thats the beauty of theatre. simple enough. case closed. done. 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 9:03am

Well said . You just about summed it up. Unfortuately  it will not change opinions of those on either side of the aisle and the arguments will continue unabated.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 9:07am

Nobody wants to change anybody else's opinions.

 

The sum total of my point of view in this thread is that I totally get how it is to become burned out by something, especially hanging out here, but this is the one show I have ever seen that surpasses the over the top hype.  That's all.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 9:45am

and what's wrong with people having different opinions and discussing that?  Kind of the purpose of these boards, isn't it?

 

 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 9:49am

It is but many do not get it. It is my way (their's) or the highway. Free speech is severely limited here unfortunately as it is most places these days.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 10:05am

 

We middle-aged white men know better than you.  You can't help it because you are a poor little POC.

 

I agree with your point, but you should should have said "middle-aged white men AND WOMEN" to be accurate.

 

Or, perhaps, "elderly."

 

[JM226]

Posted: 1/21/16 at 10:16am

hi namo. i agree with that. well put