Best and Worst Orchestrations in a musical- Page 2

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 2:44am

I don't think I can name any worsts off the top of my head (though I've heard there's a recording of Salad Days that sticks to the notoriously atrocious original orchestrations, and sounds like trash) but exuberantly seconding all the Tunick mentions. Sweeney Todd is probably his masterpiece: two and a half hours of almost nonstop, constantly engaging music, shifting and bending, always surprising and never boring or grating. I wish I could have a recording of just the orchestrations.

My other favorite of his, and this ties into the discussion on synthesizers, is Merrily We Roll Along, which has so many perfect moments that I can't mention them all - the syncopated brass in the climax of Rich and Happy, the needling synth and high-school oboe during Franklin Shepard, the gushing, lyrical swells of Our Time.

Also, obsessive shoutout to the original Carrie production, which rocks.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:46am

Great description of Tunick's work!  For some of the cast albums, I remember the remasters being a revelation.  Company for example, had a lackluster CD released in the 80s--taken from the quad remix for some reason no less (so that Amy, in Not Getting Married, had her vocals bouncing from speaker to speaker,) that was disappointing, but the late 90s remaster really showed off the way the Vocal Minority and synth work was integrated.  It makes me a little annoyed that RCA/Sony has remastered every major Sondheim album from pre 1990 (which is when they needed it, so before Assassins,) but not Pacific Overtures--probably because it doesn't sell much.  The CD from 1985 is ok, but I imagine a careful remaster would sound even better than the vinyl which I find brings out more of the orchestra's depth than the CD.  OK enough geek tech talk.

 

I also love the Merrily orchestrations--I was kinda surprised in the Encores CD to read Tunick's comment that he long felt (I paraphrase) that they didn't suit the show so he was glad to have a new chance to do them.

And yes, I freely admit I wish we had a truly high quality studio recording of Carrie with those original orchestration.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 4:24am

I'd love a remaster of Pacific Overtures, the CD has always paled to the vinyl, which I heard it on first and is pretty excellent. That production has so many highlights but, for some reason, the orchestration that always gets me is in There Is No Other Way, where it's almost a duet between the voices and the orchestra. That's probably the best thing a really great orchestration can do, work with the song to create something grander and greater, engage in a dialogue with it, rather than simply settle for filling the aural space between the singer and the audience.

That's funny about Tunick re: Merrily, because I really do not like the revised orchestrations at all. They sound so cheap and bright, particularly in comparison to the original, which is so...I almost want to call it wholesomely American, which is really appropriate. It has a distinctly high school flavor, the big brasses and the woodwinds and that terrific vibraphone opening for the reprise of Not A Day Goes By, where the two descending notes gradually come together before giving way to Jim Walton's clear, young voice. There's so much warm emotion in those original orchestrations, and they really carry the show for me.

Favorite Carrie moment: the eerie, burning transition from "Jesus Watches" to "Don't Waste The Moon".

 

edit: oh! and speaking of synthesizers, I love the nervous Baba O'Reilly-esque synth in Fun Home's "Welcome To Our House". That show's orchestrations do a lot with a little, really taking advantage of that New England string quartet sound. The whole show feels like a Pennsylvania fall day, it's so cohesive in its atmosphere.

Updated On: 4/14/15 at 04:24 AM

[aj88]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 8:54am

When I hear "BEST"...in terms of in the past 20 years I instantly go to RAGTIME and PARADE. 

As dated as it is, the OBCR of COMPANY showcases such a unique and rich template of orchestrations by Jonathan Tunick.

Pretty much any of the Tunick orchestrations for Sondheim are wonderful, and I will single out Sweeney Todd as well.

Michael Starobin's orchestrations of the revival of Assassins were amazing and looking back, while he completely deserved the Tony, most people would have probably expected that Wicked would've taken the win.

I still think Catch Me If You Can, Cinderella, On The Town, and Honeymoon in Vegas have some of the best orchestrations I have heard in the last few years.

Other old classics: An underrated Orchestrator was Eddie Sauter who did a wonderful job with It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman; The Apple Tree; and 1776.

I am one of the few people who doesn't care for the simplified Orchestrations of the Sweeney revival but I was fine with them for Company.

Usually I hate simplified orchestras but one example I love is the original Fantasticks with its dueling pianos, harp, and light percussion. It works very well.

And of course, GYPSY.

WORST:

This one is harder to say. I agree that anything that sacrifices instruments for Synthesizers are usually not the best. 

Footloose stands out as weak.

Side Show has moments of being great and others that just seem bizarre...this is more apparent on the original recording I think.

 

[Peter2]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 10:04am

To all the great names already mentioned, I'd like to add Doug Besterman. 

[degrassifan]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 12:44pm

Cinderella's orchestrations were simply beautiful! 

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 1:30pm

I think Mr. Brohn's work on Mary Poppins might be some of the finest orchestrating ever. He took a very interesting approach given the orchestra size constraints. Rather than trying various tricks and techniques to try to make the orchestra sound larger than it is, he really took a different tact and as a result, captured a turn of the century music texture. 

While I've never been in love with Jonathan Tunick's work, (he tends to really compete with the voices when he needs to take a backseat), I have to say Gentlman's Guide is quite good. 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 1:53pm

My pick for best would probably be Titanic.  The orchestrations were lush and so well-suited for the subject and material, evocative of the time, setting and situation.  

As much as I loved Xanadu, the orchestrations were a HUGE disappointment.  The biggest let-down of the show.

[musikman]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 2:00pm

The original Sunday in the Park with George was originally scored for 11 musicians as that was the same amount of colors that Seurat used in the painting.  Sondheim mentions this is the commentary on the DVD.

[morosco]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 2:08pm

...speaking of synths, I couldn't imagine Company without that brilliant rolling Rocksichord synth...

I couldn't imagine it either but sadly it was gone from the Kennedy Center Sondheim Festival production years ago.  Trumpets picked up those notes.  The Vocal Minority was gone too.  Jonathan Tunick conducted it and it was nice that he got a round of applause when he entered the pit.

COMPANY Kennedy Center Opening Number

Updated On: 4/14/15 at 02:08 PM

[eperkins]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 2:31pm

I can't believe no one mentioned South Pacific. Terrific orchestrations.

I also love Gypsy's orchestrations.

[JoseLee_]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:05pm

I love the orchestrations for the 25th anniversary of The Phantom of the Opera (with Sierra Boggess & Ramin Karimloo) 

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:08pm

Definitely PARADE. The original WEST SIDE STORY is fantastic as well.

 

On the flip side, the film version of WEST SIDE STORY has some pretty horrific orchestrations. Even though I love THE WHO'S TOMMY, the Broadway orchestrations are awful.

[JoseLee_]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:15pm

Okay I keep remembering other favorites haha.. so I really also loved Spring Awakening, Beauty and the Beast, & Sunset Boulevard.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:15pm

"When I hear "BEST"...in terms of in the past 20 years I instantly go to RAGTIME and PARADE. 
As dated as it is, the OBCR of COMPANY showcases such a unique and rich template of orchestrations by Jonathan Tunick.

I am one of the few people who doesn't care for the simplified Orchestrations of the Sweeney revival but I was fine with them for Company.

 "

 Definitely agree about Company (and I think, since I still think it should be set in 1970 and use the original libretto, the dated of course is needed.)

Curious WHICH simplified Sweeney and Company do you mean?  The actor/musicians?  Because Tunick has done a number.  I think his 1995 Company revival "non dated" ones are fine but lack distinction.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 3:19pm

"
As much as I loved Xanadu, the orchestrations were a HUGE disappointment.  The biggest let-down of the show."

 Agreed.  I think this is often a problem with pop music adaptations to the stage--especially when the originals were brilliantly produced by the likes of ELO.  Tunick did a great job nailing the Bacharach "sound" for Promises Promises (the revival is lacking IMHO) but of course he had the budget for pit singers, etc, etc.

 

Morosco--that's a shame about the Kennedy Center Company--I remember a big deal was made about how they were returning to the 1970 setting and much of the original libretto so I assumed, since it was a limited run, the original orchestrations would be there too.  Apparently there IS an issue replicating the Rocksichord (an instrument that there aren't many left on)--digital synths can come close, but many say not quite.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 5:29pm

"I'd love a remaster of Pacific Overtures, the CD has always paled to the vinyl, which I heard it on first and is pretty excellent. That production has so many highlights but, for some reason, the orchestration that always gets me is in There Is No Other Way, where it's almost a duet between the voices and the orchestra. That's probably the best thing a really great orchestration can do, work with the song to create something grander and greater, engage in a dialogue with it, rather than simply settle for filling the aural space between the singer and the audience.

Yes, that's a fave moment for me too.  And I'm glad you agree re the vinyl of PO--usually when I mention I'd like a remaster, people think I'm crazy

That's funny about Tunick re: Merrily, because I really do not like the revised orchestrations at all. They sound so cheap and bright, particularly in comparison to the original, which is so...I almost want to call it wholesomely American, which is really appropriate. It has a distinctly high school flavor, the big brasses and the woodwinds and that terrific vibraphone opening for the reprise of Not A Day Goes By, where the two descending notes gradually come together before giving way to Jim Walton's clear, young voice. There's so much warm emotion in those original orchestrations, and they really carry the show for me.

IIRC he said he assumed due to the youth of the original that it would be more rock-based so bought amped instruments he barely used.  And he felt his orchestrations were too bright so dropped the string except for some violas, etc...  I agree, I prefer the original.  (FUnny you consider the new ones more bright.)

Favorite Carrie moment: the eerie, burning transition from "Jesus Watches" to "Don't Waste The Moon".

Yes!  It really is eerie (and works great with those headlights on that crazy set.)  Say what you will about Carrie's score and how some songs, particularly in the original, are too happy-pop for the material, but lots of the underscore and transition music is genuinely scary--like something from the original Elm Street synth score or something. 

edit: oh! and speaking of synthesizers, I love the nervous Baba O'Reilly-esque synth in Fun Home's "Welcome To Our House". That show's orchestrations do a lot with a little, really taking advantage of that New England string quartet sound. The whole show feels like a Pennsylvania fall day, it's so cohesive in its atmosphere."

 Agreed (again.)  That rumbling synth line really adds to the anxiety of that song.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 6:14pm

IIRC he said he assumed due to the youth of the original that it would be more rock-based so bought amped instruments he barely used.  And he felt his orchestrations were too bright so dropped the string except for some violas, etc...  I agree, I prefer the original.  (FUnny you consider the new ones more bright.) 

I'm basing this mostly off of the 1994 off-Broadway revival but the new orchestrations feel...I always have to get weird when describing how music feels but I'd almost say, if not bright then somehow "spiky", very high-register and pointed, if that makes sense. The original production has this rolling, wide sound - like, again, a high school orchestra (you really hear it in the cut Honey, which is so warm).

[goldenstate5]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 6:33pm

Gotta be Michael Starobin, whose orchestrations are so lively, eclectic and unpredictable that they often outshine the singing themselves. I don't think I've ever encountered a piece that he touches that isn't musically dull when it comes to the orchestra, and it's no shock he worked on so many Disney musicals in the 90s with Menken that helped make so many of those songs sound not only rich, but fun. For a fantastic example of his work with Disney, I would actually point to the lesser-known "A Goofy Movie", wherein he makes this rather standard road trip showtune "On the Open Road" come completely alive by switching styles (while keeping the body of the song smooth-sounding) nearly stanza-by-stanza at many points, it's almost bewildering. (Here's a good link to the soundtrack version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTS7dpHzxzo) It's no shocker that he was so adept at handling the incredible range for "Assassins", and helps to make it my all-time favorite musical.

By far his best work is with William Finn, and I'm not sure if it's because of Finn's influence or if he just allows Starobin to do whatever the hell he wants, but holy cow all those scores for "March of the Falsettos", "A New Brain", "Spelling Bee", even the godawful La Jolla "Little Miss Sunshine" have this distinct, pop-jazz-showtune blender mix that I can't even begin to describe. It immediately proclaims itself as the work of William Finn. (the orchestrations were actually the best part of "Little Miss Sunshine", probably one of the very few things that went right) I can't get enough of especially "A New Brain", as the orchestra deftly zips between Sesame Street parodies (long before Avenue Q), Disney-esque, haunting and neurotic, and just plain chaos. It astounds me everytime I listen to it, and while it definitely has its weaker moments when it comes to the songs here and there, I'm primarily there just to listen to the pure music. And it's amazing.

I also like Tunick, just simply for his pure consistency in delivering a nice-sounding score, although when he's robbed off pieces to supply towards the band he suffers a bit. I've read conflicting things about how many pieces were in the orchestra for "Gentlemen's Guide", but even though it's a very lovely sounding-score at points, there are definite times where I go, "Wow if only the orchestra were grander this could really be something else", especially in the act one finale. His original compositions for "Company" and "Merrily" were something else.

The worst orchestrations would probably be anything that uses a ton of synthesizers and sounds just cheap and awkward. I think the primary finger I'd have to point at is the original off-Broadway orchestrations for "Little Shop", which mostly get my vote because they manage to make such a terrific Menken/Ashman score sound so bad. However I definitely recognize this is only in retrospect as there have been at least two re-orchestrations done with larger bands with the 1986 movie and the 2003 revival, which are far better almost by default. The 2006 "Pajama Game" revival is also on my list for all-time worst orchestrations. I recognize Danny Troob's name as one of them, who isn't terrible (and ironically did the re-orchestration for "Little Shop" that I just commended), but there's another name attached with lesser credits, who I wonder if he was involved moreso. The orchestra was specifically dedicated to making Harry Connick's songs sound great and literally all of the other songs sound embarrassing and cheesy. Just really so awful.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 6:36pm

"IIRC he said he assumed due to the youth of the original that it would be more rock-based so bought amped instruments he barely used.  And he felt his orchestrations were too bright so dropped the string except for some violas, etc...  I agree, I prefer the original.  (FUnny you consider the new ones more bright.) 
I'm basing this mostly off of the 1994 off-Broadway revival but the new orchestrations feel...I always have to get weird when describing how music feels but I'd almost say, if not bright then somehow "spiky", very high-register and pointed, if that makes sense. The original production has this rolling, wide sound - like, again, a high school orchestra (you really hear it in the cut Honey, which is so warm)."

 OH!  Well that's vastly different.  The Encores one were full orchestra (obviously,) and he said he went back and started from his original ones (these are from the liner notes.)  They have no real connection to the York ones (and are significantly better.) 

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 6:44pm

Great post

 

Funny that Troob and Starobin have worked together on some Menken scores (Pocahontas--Troob ran out of time and asked Starobin to help.)  It seems like Menken goes to Troob first--which may be partly loyalty and familiarity--Troob was in the tiny bands for God Bless You Mr Rosewater and Little Shop which I think he did the arrangement you hate so much for--I don't mind it but I keep in mind their limitations.  Starobin is probably happy that for Assassins' original cast album RCA asked him to do new full orchestrations--the off-Broadway production had three musicians including him and of course was synth heavy.

Starobin has a website BTW.  I didn't realize he did the original Carrie orchestrations http://www.starobin.com/credits/

[laurenmwendt]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 7:26pm

R+H Cinderella would have to be my favorite, although I also love Carousel and South Pacific (Rodgers and Hammerstein were brilliant).

As far as worst orchestrations go, I personally don't like Heathers, Hairspray, Footloose and a few others.

 

[goldenstate5]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 7:55pm

"Great post
 
Funny that Troob and Starobin have worked together on some Menken scores (Pocahontas--Troob ran out of time and asked Starobin to help.)  It seems like Menken goes to Troob first--which may be partly loyalty and familiarity--Troob was in the tiny bands for God Bless You Mr Rosewater and Little Shop which I think he did the arrangement you hate so much for--I don't mind it but I keep in mind their limitations.  Starobin is probably happy that for Assassins' original cast album RCA asked him to do new full orchestrations--the off-Broadway production had three musicians including him and of course was synth heavy.
Starobin has a website BTW.  I didn't realize he did the original Carrie orchestrations http://www.starobin.com/credits/"

 

I was searching for whoever did the orchestrations for the original '82 Little Shop and couldn't find them. If it was Troob, then clearly he attempted to retouch something he must have not been fond of due to the limitations. (after all, the musical started off-off Broadway and Ashman refused to take it to Broadway and expand it after moving to the Orpheum) I wonder if the announced Encores! Gyllenhall performance will use the new 2003 orchestrations. 

 

Interesting note about the original off-Broadway production of "Assassins", since everything I read before stated that the only piece was a bare keyboard. (a la [title of show]) I'd be insanely curious to hear it, though it would definitely pale in comparison to the rich cast album and revival versions.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 8:32pm

I'm very fond of the new Side Show recording but dammit the cheesy trumpet at the end of I Will Never Leave You annoys me tremendously.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 8:39pm

I think the liner notes for the OCR mention three instruments.  I just read Frank Rich's review of the original Assassins and he also mentions three (with Starobin being one of the players.)  A quick search on my iphone found Unworthy of your Love from the original (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeRFtDhSaaA) though I believe more clips are out there.  Of course that song doesn't have much instrumentation--so it's hard to tell.  You can hear the piano, the synth accents and flourishes (which were kept) and percussion, but none of the horns (?) that come in on the recording. 

 

OK I foolishly didn't think to look up the Lortel Archive listing.  Here we go:

Michael Starobin, Orchestrations

Paul Gemignani, Percussion

Paul Ford, Piano

Michael Starobin, Synthesizer

And for Little Shop I was completely wrong. 

 

Robby Merkin, Orchestrations

Steve Gelfand, Guitar

Robby Merkin, Keyboards

Steve Ferrara, Percussion

Robert Billig, Piano