Caroline or Change/ George C- Page 2

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 8:59am

yum.

[PleaseChangeMe]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:27am

""Being Alive" offers an audience hope."

But I don't think Sondheim liked it. Wasn't that the cop-out ending that Prince insisted on?

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:32am

fiesta1, I have come across the same resistance towards CAROLINE from several of my gay friends. And I've heard the same story that you have: "I don't want to go to the theatre to be depressed. I'm depressed enough already."

I don't really know how to react to that sentiment.

Personally, the most transcendent theatre for me is generally along the depressing line. CAROLINE, PARADE, MERRILY, FOLLIES, all favorite musicals of mine, and all depressing.

Watching depressed people on a stage makes me LESS depressed. I see a character like Caroline, or Franklin Shephard, and I feel happy that my life isn't as bad as theirs is. Yet they stir up great empathy in me, which makes me feel more human.

(Pleasechangeme, I don't believe that you're correct about the COMPANY ending. From what I can discern, Hal Prince convinced Sondheim to change the original ending, and rewrite "Happily Ever After." But my understanding is that Sondheim prefers "Being Alive," and he believes that it's a better ending for the show.)

[twogaab2]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 11:04am

It was primarily a charater study and opera for non legit voices. This simply does NOT spell financial success in our Mama Mia, Hairspray, Wicked obsessed world. I personally thought it was wonderful. It gets better on repeat hearings. But that's just the reality of the current theatrical situation.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 1:28pm

I haven't found C,oC depressing at all. It has drama, and conflict, but a great deal of comedy. And the ending, when Emmie sings "I'm the daughter of a maid" with great pride in her voice is truly uplifting. The scene at the end where Noah finally allows Rose to touch him and tuck him in brings joyous tears to my eyes. Perhaps Caroline herself hasn't changed, but everyone else's lives have, for the better. I have two other comments related to this thread. First is that after seeing the Tony's I reluctantly reserved to see it during my September trip to NYC. I wanted to see something that had been nominated for so many Tonys, and won one, but I was reluctant because Lot's Wife, by itself, turned me off and gave me the impression that the show would be depressing and not terribly tuneful. When it was cancelled, I was actually glad that I could reserve for something else. Then it was announced that the show was coming to L.A. and I bought the CD and realized what I had missed out on. And I've seen and adored it three times here. I love the line about Barbie Doll dresses (and yes there must be some in the audience who are uncomfortable about that) because it's the only real hint that Noah will grow up gay (he is Tony Kushner after all). There is nothing even remotely anti-Semetic about the play, neither in the way the Jewish characters are treated nor in the way they are spoken about by the Black characters. I do have one question to pose to you all out there. To me, one of the most devastating lines in the play is when Caroline tells Noah, an 8-year-old child, that he will burn in hell because of his relgion. But all three times I've seen it, the audience laughs. Why is that, do you think? Is it just nervous laughter? Is the line supposed to be funny, and I just don't get it? "Spoke my hate to a child" is perhaps the main reason that Caroline stays away from work...and yet audiences laugh. Any comments please? And this thread is wonderful and perfectly timed.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 2:49pm

BlueWizard, i always took the the title as Caroline's options... she either remains Caroline or she changes...

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 3:14pm

I'm surprised an audience would laugh, because the execution of the line (on the cast recording, anyway) is so stark that one can't help but be taken aback.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 3:17pm

eslgr8, I'm perplexed.

Are you saying that the L.A. audience laughed at the line "Hell's so hot it makes flesh fry, and Hell's where Jews go when they die" during the "$20 Dollar Bill" number in the second act?

That line is Caroline's biggest statement, and that two line exchange between the Noah and Caroline encompasses the entire message of CAROLINE. I can't fathom an audience laughing at that moment, and I can't believe that Wolfe, Kushner and Tesori would stand for it. It's the most serious moment of the play, and it should not garner laughter from an audience. Not even nervous laughter. It should elicit shock, and horror.

I'm glad that CAROLINE is doing well in L.A., but I can't agree with your statement that L.A. audiences are intelligent, if they feel the need to laugh at a horrifying statement like that.

It is because everyone in LA who has enough money to afford to go to the theatre has a Mexican maid of their own, and they don't want to acknowledge that that person might be human?

In New York, no one laughed at that line. The entire audience collectively gasped. Which is the only appropriate reaction, if you ask me.

[Effie]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 5:51pm

The line's gotten a laugh all three times I've seen the show. Both in NY and LA. I think it's from shock more than anything else. At least I hope so.

And regarding Caroline's change or lack thereof, I think she does change. She decides to stop being bitter about the things she can't have because she realizes her sacrifices are going to enable her kids to have a better life than the one she had. That final tableux of Emmie, Jackie and Joe always makes me tear up. Maybe because it makes me think of my own mother.

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 6:37pm

I didn't leave Caroline, or Change depressed. I left with my head spinning, wanting to walk back into the theater can get tickets for the next performance.

That said, the show is unconventionally structured. I'm bad at articulating these things, but I'll try anyway. The first act is almost all setup- of the enormous cast of characters, their situations and relationsips, and of what's happening in the world in general, especially the JFK assassination and burgeoning civil rights movement.

The creators were very, very smart in putting "Roosevelt Petruchius Coleslaw" at the end of Act I, because it's probably the show's sweetest and lightest number (even if I still don't fully comphrehend the symbols in it.) Otherwise you'd go into intermission thinking the show is very heavy and complex indeed, and not much else.

The payoff of Act I, of course, is in all the enormous emotional clashes of Act II, culminating in "Lot's Wife." It's in Act II, with "1943," that you start to fully comprehend what makes Caroline as bitter as she is, and it's in Act II that all the characters have their big moments, from Mr. Gellman's part in "Moon, Emmie and Stuart Trio" to Emmie's "I Hate the Bus."

Contrast this with, say, Oklahoma!, in which Ado Annie gets "I Cain't Say No," Jud gets "Lonely Room," and Curly and Laurie get "People Will Say We're in Love," all in Act I. Caroline's Act I makes you wait- it builds the situations slowly and methodically, hoarding all those emotions and making you spend them all at once in Act II. Even for someone who's open-minded, it's hard to wait for that long with only small amounts of release.

I have no idea if I'm saying this right- like I said, I'm pretty bad at articulating these things. But that's the impression I'm starting to get after staring at the track list of the OBC for 5 minutes or so.

Oh, and another strike "against" Caroline is the complete and utter lack of a love story. All the romance in the show is either in the past (Caroline's ex-husband and Stuart's wife) or distant, as with Dottie's boyfriend. We're used to shows with at least some kind of couple. None of that here. And like I said, even if you're open-minded it might be subconsciously off-putting.

ETA: No one laughed at the "Hell's where Jews go when they die" line when I went. But it might be nervous laughter; who knows. I found it a bit weird that we all laughed at Caroline's line about beating up her ex-husband. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 06:37 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 6:47pm

I'd say a half to 2/3 of the audience I saw the show with in NY laughed at that line.

THAT LINE IN WHICH YOU SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN ***SPOILER*** BY THE WAY!!!!!!

But I'll move on

I would never judge someone for laughing at that line. I myself, sat in shock, though, for some reason, I was smiling. I think there was a certain amount of 'Awwwwww sh!t, this is getting GOOD' to the whole thing.

But who knows. My best friend called me to tell me that he had been punched in the face by a homeless person and I burst out laughing.

He did too...so it was ok!

Updated On: 12/15/04 at 06:47 PM

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 8:28pm

Wow. I must defer to the concensus, if you all say that that line got a laugh when you attended CAROLINE.

It seems really wrong to me. Of course, memory is ephemeral. Maybe other people did laugh at that line when I saw the show, and I was just to busy trying to get my jaw out of my lap to notice. It's certainly possible.

Plum, you were very articulate, and brought up a number of interesting ideas.

This is a great thread, and I'm totally enjoying what everyone has to say about CAROLINE. As someone else said, it's a hard nut to crack. It's such an emotional show, and it certainly deserves to be analyzed to the 9th degree.

Robbie, sorry for the spoiler. By the way, Edie Falco kills herself at the end of "Night' Mother." And Nina? Isn't a Seagull. She's an ACTRESS. Nora leaves her husband, Juliet swallows poison, Anna Karenenina throws herself under a train, Charity Hope Valentine lives "hopefully" ever after, and the Wicked Witch of the West melts.


Updated On: 12/15/04 at 08:28 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 8:33pm

Dude. I haven't seen 'Night, Mother. Not cool. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 08:33 PM

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 8:50pm

Plum, Edie Falco walks on the stage and informs the audience at the beginning of "'Night Mother" that she's going to kill herself. It's not really a "SPOILER". It's a piece of information that you're given at the beginning of the show. It's a show about why, not about what happens. If it was supposed to be a big secret, Marsha Norman wouldn't have entitled her play 'Night, Mother.

Sorry, I'm just over the the whole SPOILER label. Telling someone who wins "Survivor" before the ending is a legitimate "SPOILER". Knowing that Caroline tells Noah he's going to burn in hell doesn't spoil CAROLINE, OR CHANGE. It's a musical without a plot. It can't be "spoiled," to use the Internet vernacular. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 08:50 PM

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:02pm

Veuve...I think it was a bit unfair of you to make the comment about L.A. audiences. I agree totally that those who laughed at that horrendous line which Caroline sings to Noah were hardly behaving intelligently, however I should point out that we have many more professional theaters here than in NYC and that our ticket prices are considerably lower, which allows not just the rich to attend shows. Two of the times I saw Caroline, or Change, I had 4th and 10th row "extreme side limited view" but nonetheless excellent seats for $27 each! L.A. theaters attract a broad spectrum of theatergoers, and we don't need "aw shucks" visitors from out of town to make our shows financially successful. (Now I'll get letters from out of towners, so I'll apologize in advance if I offended anyone.) Maybe if we did have higher prices, the audiences would be more intelligent??? Anyway, all this has been completely off topic. I defnitely have digressed. I do feel somewhat relieved to hear that NYC audiences also laughed at that line. Like you, Veuve, I wonder what the show creators and Ms. Pinkens feel about the audience reaction. I would love to hear what they think about this laughter. Ironically, there is complete silence when Noah tells Caroline that he hopes President Johnson's bomb will be dropped on her (oh was that a spoiler?). A child saying something horrible to an adult is a serious moment but an adult (who should know better) deliberately terrifying a boy she most likely loves provokes laughter? I'm still shocked...and as I said it happened every time I saw the show. Anyway, to all concerned, continue the discussion. It's really fascinating, and such a good show deserves this kind of intelligent dissection. I'm on my way to see a movie, but I'll be back later.
Steven :)

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:10pm

Of course Caroline has a plot. I wouldn't exactly call revealing that line a spoiler, though. And I think a thread discussing why Caroline might have failed in New York should be expected to have some spoilers.

Thank you for the further spoilers on 'Night, Mother, by the way. I appreciate it. I don't care if there's a note in the Playbill saying that suicide happens- I didn't know. And the title doesn't give it away at all. That is a spoiler.

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:13pm

Re: laughter-

Laughter doesn't necessarily indicate amusement. It can, as others have said, indicate nervousness or shock, as well. But I guess you guys have never laughed at inappropriate times, right? Of course.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:21pm

it is so perplexing, their laughter. But that is what is so intresting about the experience of watching this show, yes? It is so visceral, it hits you in all the funny places.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:34pm

Aw Plum, I'm sorry. But trust me, I haven't spoiled 'Night Mother for you. And honestly, didn't you know this? There's no way that anyone can describe 'Night Mother without saying that. What's it about? It's about a woman who decides to kill herself. Before I saw the original production with Kathy Bates, I knew the plot. I wouldn't have gone to see the show unless I knew the plot. It was revealed in every single review. The point of the play is WHY she does it, not THAT she does it. That's a given. It's like telling someone that THE BOY FROM OZ is the story of Peter Allen's life. It's not a spoiler, it's simply the subject matter of the show.

Now, back to CAROLINE. I suppose one could say that it has a plot. A little boy leaves change in his pockets and his mother tells the maid she can have it. That's not much of a plot. But it's a show about ideas, not about events.

Steven, to address your post, I lived in Los Angeles for three years. I don't have a very high opinion of your home town, but it's an educated opinion. I'm not just some New Yorker that has never experienced the L.A. lifestyle who is putting down your city. I know exactly how musical theatre ranks in Los Angeles. It doesn't. If you're not in the "INDUSTRY," you don't exist. I'm very glad that there is musical theatre in L.A. (and there are some good theatre companies out there, despite the odds). But my vituperative comment about Los Angeleans and their maids was something I observed while I was out there, and one of the reasons I hated your town so viscerally. The level of prejudice that exists out there astounds me. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 09:34 PM

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:39pm

Of course the show has a plot. It is a very strong one too. It just isn't a plot driven show. The plot is very minor, and most of the events in it are emotional ones as opposed to literal.

It is a show about ideas that come from events; the emotions surrounding change.

It is just like the patterns of history, and one might say it is the whole plot of Caroline:

"History, change, reaction."

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 9:44pm

I knew about the "deciding to kill yourself" part. Actually doing it is different. But it's no biggie- I'm going to watch the show anyway.

And like I said, I don't think mentioning that line by Caroline is a spoiler, especially in the context of a thread like this. It's like someone complaining about spoilers in that thread we had about the show's death imagery.

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:01pm

I tend to prefer musicals that others deem "depressing"--or theatre in general (my fave plays by my fave playwright, Tennessee Williams, are Sweet Bird of Youth and Orpheus Descending). I agree with others here that such theatre doesn't really leave me depressed though--I feel enriched by it.

BTW Sondheim is quoted as calling Being Alive a cop out ending--I think in the Zadan book. He's said he only saw it work *once* really and that was in a late 80s revival by Susan Schulman (sp?) where he said the actor playing Bobby had such a clear "i got it" moment just thru how he acted right before and leading into the song.

as much as I love and respect Sondheim's opinion though--and LOVE Happily Ever After, I think Prince was right--it just wouldn't work as an ending for Company. (of course in some wasy Prince ended Zorba--his concept musical right before COmpany--in just that manner with Zorba's life not really changed--and I know it wasn't a big hit partly as people found it so depressing)

E Updated On: 12/15/04 at 10:01 PM

[BroadwayBound06]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:11pm

CoC is indeed a brilliant show, one of the few brilliant ones last season. I just wish it wouldn't have closed so soon so i would have gotten a chance to see it.

I just wanted to refer to the breif COMPANY discussion. I've read multiple times that Sondheim does not like "Being Alive" because he thinks it's a cop out. But that song is what the show needed. "Happily Ever After" is a brilliant but depressing song, and "Marry Me a Little" just didn't fit. And I have no idea what "Multitudes of Amy" is like.

Please excuse my offtopicness.

BTW: What song is the "Barbie" line in? I've listened to the show god knows how many times, but i've never caught it. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 10:11 PM

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:17pm

MisterChoi, I understand what you're getting at. But "History, change, reaction" isn't a plot. They are themes. I think audiences are conditioned to expect plot, which CAROLINE has very little of.

EricMontreal, I believe you're right that Sondheim is quoted as considering "Being Alive" a cop out ending in the Zadan book. But he has apparently changed his mind since then, if one can believe Seacrest. I suspect he's come around to Hal's way of thinking over the years. If he really wanted "Happily Ever After" to close the show, he had ample opportunity to reinstate it in the recent COMPANY revivals, which didn't involve Mr. Prince. Updated On: 12/15/04 at 10:17 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:19pm

I don't think "Marry Me A Little" or "Multitudes of Amy" were ever meant to be the ending of the show.

The strange thing about "Happily Ever After" is that it seems to fit more more easily into the arc of the show. Making "Being Alive" believable is extremely difficult and probably depends very heavily on having an excellent Bobby; I'd love to see a production that truly pulls it off.

And the "Barbie doll dresses" line is in "Stuart and Noah," I think.