Caroline or Change/ George C- Page 3

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:36pm

I think Sondheim still prefers Happily Ever After actually VeuveCliquot (I'm not trying to say you're wrong--I love and agree with most of your posts here). Quoting from page 201-2 of the Seacrest hardcover:

[About Being Alive]"Nothing actually has changed. Marriage is still the same smothering relationship full of vain regret, unsolved antagonisms, and annihilating resentments, but its existence spells the difference between a submerged, half-dead kind of life and true awareness. The implication was that barriers that were self-imposed could only be removed by the arrival of someone else, but it was a debatable point, given the marriages on display here. If Robert had learned anything by the end of the show, it was not about the ideal of marital harmony or wise maturity. All his friends had rotten marriages, but he knew that already. If nothing had happened to the hero, how could he have a change of heart? Artistically speaking, "Happily Ever After" was the only valid ending, even if, as Prince said, it seemed to frighten audiences. But "Being Alive" it was, and it became one of SOndheim's best-known songs. Years later, while listening to an orchestral reading for a revival of Company by the Roundabout Theatre Company on Broadway in 1995, Sondheim was observed afterwards leaving his sea, walking away and wiping his eyes. [my snarky comment--maybe he was so sad by the drearily small orchestra and Tunick's lame new "contemporary" orchestrations]

Sondheim said he had always been aware that "Happily Ever After" was the logical song for Robert to sing, and he had never felt comfortable with the substitution of "Being Alive." "There was one time when I saw the show where it worked, and I can't tell you why, but it was an off-Broadway production at the York Theatre some years ago. Susan Schulman directed it, and the leading part was sung by a guy, now dead, named David James Carroll, and somehow, when he turned front and sang that song, it was as if the whole evening had led to it. I don't know how he did it, but it was completely fulfilling. I thought, my God, we don't need a transition of the right actor's playing it.

Now maybe if I saw it again I wouldn't think so, but that is the way it seemed that night and it was the one time the song moved me. I don't mean that I don't get touched or moved by it. But the thing that moves me is aline that was written by George, not me. It's when Amy says, 'Blow out your candles and make a wish. Want something. Want SOMEthing!' I get chills listening to it"

End quote

I love that line too.

I think Sondheim hasn't put Happily back in because now audiences know and love Being Alive prob more than any other song there, and I doubt directors would be happy with Happily instead. BTW I despise most of the new changes by Furth and him (can you still perform the original from MTI? I know the Kennedy Center version did--with the original 1970 orchestrations). Some of the changes are minor--the drunken story now involved less bottles of wine than before, but many IMHo don't work. The songs, even without that great 1970s synth, still sound very 1970s to me, as do lines like "Or my service will explain"--who uses answering services now? The new revised libretto starts with answering machines so? I think the relationships and beliefs feel much more 1970 than 1995 or now anyway

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:40pm

Marry Me a Little was written at one time to be the finale I think... But never performed. Happily *was* the ending in the previews in Boston (Multitudes of Amy I think was written to be elsewhere in the show). Despite not liking the revised version as much I do like Marry being the Act I closure for many reasons

On one site someone posted the song list from one of the previews which had Poor Baby opening Act II and Side by Side being right near the finale. Odd

E

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:44pm

Thanks for posting the Seacrest quote, Eric.

It is kind of surprising to me. But I could certainly be wrong about it. I seem to remember reading something contradictory to this, but I can't put my finger on it right now, and I may be confused. (Aging. Sucks. Trust me.) I've recently been reading a bunch of Hal Prince biographies, and I may be confusing Prince's opinions about Sondheim with Sondheim's actual opinions.

I agree with your point about the time period of COMPANY being incredibly specific, and I can't imagine why people would try to update it.
Updated On: 12/15/04 at 10:44 PM

Posted: 12/15/04 at 10:53pm

Hahah Well age has its benefits too I assume--like getting to see some of these shows (i wasn't born till 1980)

Which Prince books would you recommend? I realized recently I've read tons of books about Fosse and a couple of Bennett ones but no Prince ones...

E

Posted: 12/16/04 at 1:01am

Since it hasn't been mentioned-_Tessori and Kushner are writing a new musical set in turn of the century (turn of the 20th century that is) America.

E

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 1:05am

I saw "Caroline.." last April in NY. I remember meeting and talking with someone during intermission and when we asked each other what we thought of the show so far, we looked at each other and said "I think we are seeing something important, possibly a modern masterpiece". There was no really big splashy number to close the first act, but I left the theatre at intermission thinking "This second act is going to kick ass". The first act set us up for it in my opinion. And what we got in the second act was brilliant. You knew all of the characters from their introductions in the first act and, in my opinion, that helped you to understand where everyone was coming from when the "event" happens in the second act. The party sequence in the second act is just brilliant! "I Hate the Bus" and the "Moon, Emmie and Stuart Trio" just sent chills down my spine! "Lot's Wife" left me jaw dropped. And yes Ms. Pinkins voice cracked a bit but it just didn't matter. The conviction and power that she put forth in her delivery was stunning.

I was reading the comments from people in the Gay community about it being depressing. That caught my eye as a friend of mine here in Denver does not even want to hear the recording based on the storyline. Being gay myself, I just love theatre and I take a show for what it is and was in no way depressed when I left the Eugene O'neill Theatre. Possibly because also being an African American and having a mother that was a maid in the 60's, I connected with the show. And Tony Kusner just nailed it. But even if I had not had that connection, I would have still loved this show.

I followed Caroline during its off-B'way run and transfer to B'way. I knew it had to be the 1st show I saw when I got to new york. Why? Because I knew it would be the closet thing to what I remember B'way shows as being. I just felt it. (I haven't been to a B'way show since 1990!) I left the theatre absolutely exhilerated. The show for me said "Welcome back to Broadway"! I saw 4 more shows during my trip (A Raisin in the Sun, Assassins, Wicked and Bare) I enjoyed them all but Caroline stuck with me. (And Wicked was the center of my trip to New York. My boyfriend at the time even flew in from Denver to see it with me.) Having been so overwhelmed while seeing "Caroline...", I was dying for the OBC recording to come out so I could listen to it much more closely. When it did, I listened to it twice all the way through with no interruptions. And I realized why I knew I had seen a masterpiece! And I listen to it often. It is a gem of a show and I have been singing it's praises to all of my friends who like theatre. And I hope to see it again in San Francisco. It is worth the trip!Just my opinion.

[TonyInATL]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 2:41am

Updated On: 1/17/05 at 02:41 AM

[Plum]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 3:06am

I really do think Dottie was the show's biggest weakness, character-wise. She seemed too young to be Caroline's friend- she was more like someone Emmie might hang out with. The way Caroline treated her from the start, too, didn't really indicate much friendship. Everyone else was tied together by bonds of family or employment; Dottie seemed like a semi-outsider by comparison. But that's just my perspective.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 3:31am

I was no crazy about the music, but the show itself was remarkable. I think that it flopped because most theatregoers aren't smart enough for it. That's why WICKED continues to sell out when shows like CAROLINE OR CHANGE flop.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 8:55am

I loved Dottie, and I felt that the actress playing her did a fantastic job, though she seemed to give the same exact performance everynight, which isn't something I love.

The true star of Caroline was Veanne Cox though. Shame she didn't nab that tony. She was well-deserving.

By the way, did you all know that Sondheim is NOT a fan of Caroline, or Change?

[Justice]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 9:45am

It was a show that you either REALLY Loved, or REALLY hated. There was no in-between. I, personally Loved it, but the person I saw it with Hated it. George is a genius. (So is Des MacEnoff (sp?) and he directed many a flop) All I have to say is Anika deserved the award. I didn't care what happened to the show after that.

Updated On: 12/16/04 at 09:45 AM

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 10:25am

Thank you TonyInATL!

I did not know that Sondheim is not a fan of the show. How do you know this? Did he say why? Maybe he is upset that he didn't think to write this show!!! And I am a big fan of his.

About Dottie....I liked the character. She seemed to be the friend that could say anything to Caroline and take anything Caroline threw back at her. A lot of us have such friends. I can see where people might think that the character could have been developed a bit more, but I was pretty much satisfied with Dotties character.

And I agree that Veanne Cox should have nabbed an award. But I would like to have seen this show get several. Anika Nani Rose very much deserved her Tony.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 11:19am

The reason I still believe that quoting that line is a spoiler is because it was indeed spoiled for me.

I knew the line was coming and it lessened the impact.

Had you just said, 'Caroline says something TERRIBLE to Noah' that would have been fine.

But quoting the actual line? Come on.

There are still people who haven't seen it or heard the cast recording but are able to see it on the left coast. They should be allowed the full impact of the shock that I was denied.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 11:26am

And a shock it was! My jaw dropped to the floor when I saw the show. Even 8 months after seeing it, it still gets me when I listen to the cast recording.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 11:34am

I noticed that everyone, including myself, who has bought the cast recording absolutely loves Caroline, or Change. It is only when people actually go the show where I see people disagreeing on the greatness of Caroline, or Change.
Do you think that the reason why people love the CD so much is because they actually get to hear the lyrics in their own terms? They could sit in the comfort of their own home and make themselves comfortable and give their full attention to the music, while in a theater you are more likely to mentally wander off, especially if nothing grabs you. I can really see people who aren't grabbed by this show not giving the show their full attention and thus not getting it. We all know that it is very important that a person gives their full attention to the show because the characters tell you everything rather than show you, and because of that, people tend to miss a lot of the brilliant parts of the show.

Also, I don't believe people are just too stupid, I mean yeah they can be, but that wouldn't explain all the intelligent people who didn't like this show either.

[SONDHEIM8]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 12:39pm

I'm seeing CAROLINE on Saturday and I'm very excited. Although I usually try to listen to show before I see it, a critic who was reviewing the cd mentioned that it is better to see the show before buying the cd. Any comments on that?








LINK: Tracy, you look beautiful behind bars.

TRACY: It must be the low-watt institutional lighting.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 12:59pm

I think it's a matter of personal taste. I myself much prefer to know a score before I see a show. Hearing the songs sung live has a greater impact on me. It's kind of like when you see a famous singer or group in concert. I think most people respond better to music they already know, than when a singer tries to introduce something new. Definitely this was the case for me with Caroline. The melodies are complicated, and many musical genres are interspersed, depending on which character sings. Check the comments about the OBC CD at amazon.com. A number of the posters stated that it took several listenings of the score for them to fully appreciate its beauty. That's one reason why seeing it before knowing the music might make one like the show less. But I would just follow your instinct. If knowing the music to a show makes you enjoy it more, then listen to the CD first. If in general you prefer to hear it for the first time when you first see the show, then by all means wait until you've seen it. Updated On: 12/16/04 at 12:59 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 1:05pm

I gues would see the show first but I also found that I appreciated the show even more after listening to the CD. I saw an interview with Tony Kushner where he addressed this. He suggested that the show needed to be seen more than once (Before the cast recording came out)for people to really get/enjoy it. Hearing it first helps you to understand it but it also gives a lot away. In my opinion, it is just so different that you are taking all of this in, kind of embracing the difference, deciding if you LIKE the difference and yes, your mind may wander the 1st time you see it. I even thought that I wished I could have gone a second time while I was in NYC but I couldn't. But, for me, it just stayed in the back of my mind until I could buy the cast recording. Also, I thought the music sounded wonderful live.

I think it is interesting that we are still having a conversation about this show. I think it says something about the show and how even though it did not last on Broadway, it may be the beginning of a change. I hope it is. I would love to see more shows like this. I have heard the word challenging used to describe this show. I didn't find it "challenging" but I agree that audiences have been groomed to not have to really think too hard when seeing a show and are used to splashy special effects musicals. With a few exceptions, such as RENT. Just my opinion. I am at work and getting a bit busy so I will stop here for now before I start making less sense!!! :)

[Plum]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 2:23pm

When did Sondheim ever say he doesn't like Caroline, or Change? Anyway, if he did, I doubt it's because of jealousy, uncageg. He really doesn't have reason to be jealous of anyone in musical theater.

I saw the show having only seen Tonya Pinkins' performance on the Tonys. The lyrics were hard to make out, but luckily the show was close-captioned. I enjoyed the show immensely. I guess if I'd listened to the CD first I could concentrate more on the less-obvious aspects of the score live, but that's what a second go-around is for, too, and I fully intended to go again before the show closed. Grr.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 3:12pm

Plum, I was joking about Sondheim being jealous. We all know he need not be! But that makes me think...I wonder what the music for Caroline would have been like had he written the music to the same lyrics?!

[Plum]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 3:58pm

That's a weird thing to think about, especially because I don't think he's ever written music for someone else's lyrics before, and was loathe to even write lyrics for Bernstein and Styne's music early in his career.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 4:05pm

It was just a thought. Weird to you but interesting to me!

[Plum]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 4:56pm

Oh, weird is interesting! :P

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 5:16pm

Yeah, sondheim doesn't like it.

He thinks it was made to be too big of a deal and overrated.

Guess it just wasn't his cup of tea.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/16/04 at 5:21pm

Did he say this in an interview? As much as I like him, I don't agree with him.