Caroline, or Change Question

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 7/19/12 at 10:20pm

On the cast recording, Rose always refers to Caroline as "Carolyn," even when other characters say it correctly within the same song. Is that intentional, or is it just how Rose pronounces the name? If it was a diction issue I can't imagine it wasn't corrected while they were recording.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/19/12 at 11:04pm

Yeah, it's intentional. Not on Rose's part, she's just a white lady who doesn't quite get the maid's name right.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 7/19/12 at 11:45pm

Well that certainly turns a lot of my sympathy away from Rose. Not only can she not get it right when everyone around her is saying it correctly, but it also calls into question how much she cares about Caroline. I always felt that, as a northerner and a generally good person, Rose is sympathetic toward Caroline. I mean, she tries to make friends, offers food, etc. But is she really that gregarious if she can't even say her name right?

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 7/19/12 at 11:49pm

^I also just assumed that she never cared to get it right. There's a hint of condescension every time she says her name, but maybe that's just me.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 12:05am

The way I saw it in performance was that she was so self-conscious around a black woman and trying to say and "do" the right things so as not to appear prejudiced, that she ended up inadvertently revealing her prejudices.

Let's not forget she's the catalyst of the whole "change" idea, which she thinks will do two things simultaneousy: 1) help Caroline with extra change and 2) punish Noah for not understanding the value of money. Naturally, she completely misses how condescending it is and she insults Caroline with the plan.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 12:09am

^I also just assumed that she never cared to get it right. There's a hint of condescension every time she says her name, but maybe that's just me.

I don't think so, but my grandmother always calls my friend Carolyn Caroline because she just can't get it straight. I always thought Rose had good intentions, but was a little misguided. She's in a rough spot and it just trying to do what she thinks is best.

[Plum]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 1:13am

I felt like that when I first saw the production, but re-listening to the cast recording years later, I get hit harder by Rose's privilege. "Trying your best" stops being an excuse when you're hurting people, you know? She thinks she's trying to be Caroline's "friend", but come on - she's her employer, and the power dynamics there make friendship almost impossible even before you account for their totally discordant personalities. And obliviousness to those inequalities is exactly what privilege is all about.

If Rose wanted to help Caroline so much she could have given her a raise, or at least a Christmas bonus or something, rather than continually pushing unwanted cabbage on the poor woman.

That said, Veanne Cox's performance was so tremendous that it helped me be a bit oblivious to all that when I saw the show live. I felt more sympathetic towards Rose then.

Updated On: 7/20/12 at 01:13 AM

[Fan123]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 4:51am

It's interesting reading these ideas about Rose. I've only ever read and listened to the show, and that a fair while ago, but I thought the laundry/change rule was 80% about Rose wanting to drive a wedge between Rose's "rival mother figure", Caroline, and Noah, even if Rose didn't realise that herself. It was forcing Caroline to act as the 'bad cop parent' so that Rose wouldn't need to do it herself and further alienate Noah.
I'm wondering now if I was too harsh on Rose... maybe seeing her in a performance makes a difference.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 7:33am

Noah gets it wrong once or twice, too, which I always found a little odd.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 8:04am

It's an inadvertent racism. Rose is so afraid that she will insult or hurt Caroline, or say the wrong thing, that she often does.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 8:11am

Some people, honestly!
There's oppression and misery,
and then there are people
who're just plain nasty.


Just trying to be friendly.
Just trying to be a friend.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 9:51am

Anyway....

The shirts still good, look where the quarter was, you can almost read the little writing.

[broadwaydevil]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 9:56am

I think FindingNamo nailed it.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 10:56am

Veanne Cox's terrific performance definitely humanizes Rose. The change is definitely thought to be a two-way street: a game to teach Noah and a way to help Caroline without insulting her. Little does she realize....

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 4:14pm

That would also explain why she is so quick to backpedal when she points out that Caroline ruined Mr. Gellman's shirt - "It's not your fault," "You take such good care of us," etc. Part of that, of course, is after Caroline threatens to hit her with the iron, but still.

Edit: I've been listening to the CD today and I realized that Rose is actually quite resentful of Noah. She basically calls him a spoiled brat when she's on the phone with her dad.

Which makes me wonder - does Rose really love her new husband? Why else would she have married him? Obviously it's not because she wanted Noah to have a mother, though she does try to mother him and is hurt when he won't let her. Stuart expresses that he married her for a new start, but why did she consent?

Updated On: 7/20/12 at 04:14 PM

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 5:04pm

^ that was part of what I meant when I said I thought Rose was in a stuff spot and was just doing her best. Her best friend died, she married her widower, moved to the South, has a new stepson who doesn't really want a stepmother and has a rocky relationship with Caroline, who isn't the most pleasant of people anyway. I'm sure she loves Stuart, but I don't know if I think she's in love with him. She just wanted to step in and help Betty's family, I think.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 5:29pm

Kushner writes complicated people. Cox's performance was also in the writing.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 5:40pm

To be fair, there's also a question of whether Stuart actually loves Rose. It's implied he's still in love with deceased wife.

We learn a lot about the relationship from just this small verse:

Look, see Rose's husband,
Gone stiff in mid-air.
The heartbroke musician,
who froze on the stair.
Oh, Stu, do you love me?
The question's unfair.
How can you be loved by someone who's not there?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 5:49pm

Cox deserved a Tony nomination for her extremely layered performance. I saw a woman trying very hard to keep it together in extremely foreign territory, inside her house and outside. Not to mention she was in an environment that was behind the times AND it was still the dawn of the Civil Rights Movement. Her stress and anxiety were palpable and I loved how her frustrations would occasionally explode in a quick aside to the audience.

Rose cares about her husband and Noah. She cares about Caroline and is desperate to connect with somebody, but she truly doesn't know how and is overwhelmed.

I hate to say it, but at the performance I attended, both Veanne Cox and Anika Noni Rose delivered stronger performances than Tonya Pinkins.

[nasty_khakis]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 6:19pm

I am still SHATTERED by all three women's performances. When I met Veanne Cox years later I teared up when I tried to tell her what her performance and that show meant to me. She honestly started to tear up herself (only slightly compared to my blubbering mess) and she said "It means so much to hear that. Thank you" and just hugged me. I've probably never seen a more complex and layered and natural performance in such a non natural show. Tonya remains one of the most raw in every sense of the word. She was an exposed nerve or wire.