Color-blind and gender-blind casting- Page 3

[HogansHero]

Posted: 10/29/20 at 4:39pm

what was insulting? That you don't understand "racial baggage"? You have said that yourself about ten times now. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 10:52am

I understand the term well, you are misapplying it. And are using insults because I don't agree with you. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 11:18am

I ask again: what was the insult? 

To clarify: to me an insult is something personal and unrelated to the discussion at hand. When I characterize a point you make as tainted by racial baggage, that is intrinsic to the discussion. When you say, as you have repeatedly, that you can't look beyond a particular actor's skin color, that is quintessentially racial baggage. I don't understand how you can own your bias, as you do, and find it insulting. As I have said before, I get that we often resist things we don't want to confront. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 11:24am

Not getting into a troll game where you get me to elaborate on theories of what constitutes an insult. Your are mischaracterizing me to create a negative image of me, and using it to try to control this conversation. When you are capable of having a respectful conversation, then we can get back to the conversation. Right now you're hijacking it to attack people who disagree wtih you. 

[MysteriousLady]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 11:38am

I'm surprised at the number of people who don't seem to understand the concept of color blind casting in regards to the recent Carousel revival.
I assume most of the audience understood that having a black man play Billy didn't mean the production was making Billy a black character. We were meant to ignore it, and ignoring the actor's race wasn't to much to ask, especially because we got to hear this score sung so well.
Talk about miscegenation laws in the nineteenth century is neither here nor there.
The Streetcar revival was a different situation, as that production made Stanley, Blanche, etc. black characters.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 12:53pm

joevitus said: "Not getting into a troll game where you get me to elaborate on theories of what constitutes aninsult. Your are mischaracterizing me to create a negative image of me, and using it to try to control this conversation. When you are capable of having a respectful conversation, then we can get back to the conversation. Right now you're hijacking it to attack people who disagree wtih you."

I am not attacking anyone. I am attacking the foundation of your ideas. I have done that respectfully but you don't want to own your own foundation. I get it; it's hard to undo ingrained notions on a dime. When you tell me what you see with your eyes, it is not unreasonable to question your "vision." We do not have to get back to the conversation if you don't want to. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 1:45pm

You are making false assertions about me, I've told you they are false and you continue to make them. You are also--whether it is your intention  or not--hijacking this tread by making it about me rather than about the topic at hand. This is generally a troll move.

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 2:02pm

No hijacking. The thread is about color blind casting and you have acknowledged an inability to be color blind. That's right on topic. There are many words that can be used to describe me, but "troll" seems like a pretty far-fetched one. I think my bona fides here are pretty well established, but I think I am done with this thread. I wish you well, and particularly in the arduous task of baggage shedding. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/30/20 at 8:41pm

You are lying about me and, yes, highjacking. Classic troll devices. If you aren't a troll, you should stop.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 12:05pm

I'm guessing HogansHero is a far-left liberal with major white guilt and a white savior complex, who thinks in black-and-white terms (no pun intended). In these extremists' simple minds, one size fits all. But not every play/musical can be easily cast color-blind, especially when it takes place in a specific time and place. For example, in Rodgers & Hammerstein's Cinderella, which is set in a magical fairyland where anything goes, it's okay; but a piece like Carousel (1800s Maine, which even today is 95% white) or My Fair Lady (1913 London), it's just absurd. These so-called Social Justice Warriors just want us to suspend ALL disbelief, which is insane! Well, then again, they all seem to be. They need to get a grip on reality. There IS such a thing a miscasting. Imagine that!

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 4:58pm

I don't want to attack anyone on either side, which just derails the conversation. I wish we'd accept we're just guessing at one another's real-life personalities here (except for the few who actually know each other in person). Having seen myself falsely depicted, I don't want to turn around and do the same to others. I also don't want the thread hijacked. 

I only want to concentrate on the issue. And I do think that color blind casting works in some instances, I just think it's case by case, not only in terms of the role, but also in terms of overall casting in a show. 

I agree with you that works in fairy tale worlds are particularly apt to handle this, but I'd say even works that aren't fairy tales can work. It really is on a case by case basis. I'd also say it works better when it is fully ultized throughout the cast. The movie of Chicago is a great example. In real life Chicago in 1920, no Black woman would be made the matron of a white women's prison, and if in the real Chicago, Kitty were Asian, the press would have played that up, (they'd "other" the hell out of her). But Marshall employed color blind casting throughout, from extras to leads, so he built a consistent world. And though it was clearly not the real world, it still worked as a reflection of our real world and the issues we face.

On the other hand, we're not likely to ever see a major production of The Sound of Music where some of the von Trapp children are black and some white, maybe a couple of Asians. That isn't because people can't "see beyond" race. It's for other reasons, involving, as I said in an earlier post, reality. (Though decades ago when I was working at a local acting school, and a Black girl asked me if she should audition for one of the children in an upcoming amateur production, I told her to contact the theater and ask because I think everyone should give it a shot if they want to play a certain role, and what harm does it do to ask, or audition?).

I definitely agree amateur and high school/college shows should adopt color blind casting across the board. I think different rules apply to productions like these, and I also don't want to see young kids/teens, even adults doing theater outside of work for fun--and all of  whom might invest a different kind of emotion/psychology in getting cast--to be made to feel rejected/excluded. But then, as the movie Camp shows, a white girl playing Effie is innately ridiculous. So even there, there are limits.

 

Updated On: 10/31/20 at 04:58 PM

[Owen22]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 7:32pm

joevitus said: "On the other hand, we're not likely to ever see a major production of The Sound of Music where some of the von Trapp children are black and some white, maybe a couple of Asians. That isn't because people can't "see beyond" race. It's for other reasons, involving, as I said in an earlier post, reality."

I don't know if by "major" you only mean Broadway but I have seen two big productions, one in Australia and one in the UK (both were major, one in the West End) and Liesel was black in one an Asian in the other.

Colorblind casting is also about giving people of color a chance to play roles that, up until now, they never could. Most of the great works of the past feature white characters. White people, should NEVER play characters originally written for people of color. It's not the same thing. Again it's about opportunity.

 

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 7:47pm

That's interesting to hear. I didn't see or even know about either production (obviously), so I can't comment on how well I think the casting worked. To answer your question, I would consider both productions major.

I understand why color-blind casting exists. And I like the idea of (many) more opportunities being extended to performers who are members of racial minorities. I also like more shows created with racial minorities in mind. 

But, again, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

And, I think it cannot be claimed that those who disagree with some instances of color-blind casting can't "get past" race if indeed we are saying from the start no role traditionally played by a minority member is open to a white person. If the definition of "getting past" race is accepting that any performer is the race of the role written, not the race they themselves actually are, then it will have to go for all people of all races, or the accusations against one group are simply mind-games and put-downs.

To me, that pretty much everyone has chose to ignore half the OP's question--that we see why most of the time a male actor can't take over a female role nor a female actor a male role--shows the basic falsity of the "color-blind casting always works/is never wrong" position. 

[Owen22]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 8:38pm

joevitus said: "f the definition of "getting past" race is accepting that any performer is the race of the role written, not the race they themselves actually are, then it will have to go for all people of all races, or the accusations against one group are simply mind-games and put-downs."

No. It's political, in that the only reason for colorblind casting is opportunity.  It isn't even "the best actor/singer" should get the role. Besides anytime Audra is colorblind cast, there are plenty of wonderfully talented white people to fill those spots.

And casting a white person in a role written for a POC is inherently racist.  Reading your postings I know you probably are unable to understand this, but I guarantee you, as much as anything can be subjective, what I just wrote is true.  Part of the problem as has already been stated, usually POC characters are written as POC with a history of said characters' lives being lived as a minorities (I love Tyne Daly. I would actually be intrigued to see her attempt Ma Rainey--but good sense would make me yell, "No, Tyne, Don't.....!".  I guess somewhere, in some play, there are black/Asian/Hispanic/Other characters where their experience has nothing to do with their character. I guess that would be okay to cast white (?)... I just don't know why someone would want to...

 

 

Updated On: 10/31/20 at 08:38 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/31/20 at 11:01pm

Casting a white person in a black role would be stupid. Not sure it's inherently racist, but then I think racism depends on intention as much as action. But even if it isn't racist, it is silly. A white Porgy or Evillene doesn't make any sense, and contradicts what the work is about. 

Where I more disagree with you is the idea that all roles can be as equally fitted for a minority actor as for anyone else. How do you cast a woman of color as Nellie Forbush and have the part make any sense? How do you cast a man of color as the Sherif in Porgy and Bess?
I don't know that I agree that it is entirely a political issue. There is nothing political about making one of the families in Dear Evan Hanson black, for instance. There's nothing about the show that makes the issues involved reflect one race rather than another, nor is any sort of racial slur accidentally portrayed through color-blind casting in that case the way casting a Black actor as Billy Bigelow immediately suggests racial stereotypes. I'm not sure how you'd cast Tracy Turnblad with a person of color, considering that racial issues  and the issue of integration are so ingrained in the meaning of the work.

[Owen22]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 8:15am

joevitus said: "Casting a white person in a black role would be stupid. Not sure it's inherently racist, but then I think racism depends on intention as much as action. But even if it isn't racist, it is silly. A white Porgy or Evillene doesn't make any sense, and contradicts what the work is about.

Where I more disagree with you is the idea that all roles can be as equally fitted for a minority actor as for anyone else. How do you cast a woman of color as Nellie Forbush and have the part make any sense? How do you cast a man of color as the Sherif in Porgy and Bess?
I don't know that I agree that it is entirely a political issue. There is nothing political about making one of the families in Dear Evan Hanson black, for instance. There's nothing about the show that makes the issues involvedreflect one race rather than another, nor is any sort of racial slur accidentally portrayed through color-blind casting in that case the way casting a Black actor as Billy Bigelow immediately suggestsracial stereotypes. I'm not sure how you'd cast Tracy Turnblad with a person of color, considering that racial issues and the issue of integration are so ingrained in the meaning of the work."

No, the idea of giving a POC a role written as a white character (we're usually talking about revivals here) giving a marginalized actor an opportunity is political. That's what I meant.

And yes, I think we all agree that a white role in a show that is itself about race should always stick to the original casting type.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 10:06am

Owen22 said: "No, the idea of giving a POC a role written as a white character (we're usually talking about revivals here) giving a marginalized actor an opportunity is political. That's what I meant."

I think you are confounding the political decision of giving preference to minorities in hiring and the artistic decision to cast blindly; they are separate although the former sometimes upstages the latter. I would add that the former is a remedy for racial baggage.

[Owen22]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 11:03am

HogansHero said: "Owen22 said: "No, the idea of giving a POC a role written as a white character (we're usually talking about revivals here) giving a marginalized actor an opportunity is political. That's what I meant."

I think you are confounding the political decision of giving preference to minorities in hiring and the artistic decision to cast blindly; they are separate although the former sometimes upstages the latter. I would add that the former is a remedy for racial baggage."

I would argue they are exactly the same thing.

 

[Rob120]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 11:17am

The level of passive racism in this thread should be astounding but I’m sadly not surprised. Clearly non BIPOCs saying “A Black Billy reenforces racial stereotypes” or more absurdly “miscegenation laws hadn’t been repealed” or worst of all “a Black Jenna changes what Waitress is about.” What you’re saying is that a Black Billy Bigelow or Jenna made you uncomfortable because it made you look outside of your own bubble, or it made you think about other people existing in your bubble. You’re fine with Black actors in period pieces as long as it’s Audra McDonald who you feel comfortable with. The problem isn’t Joshua Henry’s or Nicolette Robinson’s casting. It’s white audiences looking for any excuse to invalidate it. Open your mind, suspend your disbelief, explore your own biases and bigotries, and learn to celebrate talented performers having the opportunity to play a variety of roles.

Updated On: 11/1/20 at 11:17 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 12:18pm

Rob120 said: "The level of passive racism in this thread should be astounding but I’m sadly not surprised. Clearly non BIPOCs saying “A Black Billy reenforces racial stereotypes” or more absurdly “miscegenation laws hadn’t been repealed” or worst of all “a Black Jenna changes what Waitress is about.” What you’re saying is that a Black Billy Bigelow or Jenna made you uncomfortable because it made you lookoutside of your own bubble, orit made you think about other people existing in your bubble. You’re fine with Black actors in period piecesas long as it’s Audra McDonald who you feel comfortable with. The problem isn’t Joshua Henry’s or Nicolette Robinson’s casting. It’s white audiences looking for any excuse to invalidate it. Open your mind, suspend your disbelief, explore your own biases and bigotries, and learn to celebrate talented performers having the opportunity to play a variety of roles."

Wrong. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 12:38pm

Owen22 said: "I would argue they are exactly the same thing."

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but let me just ask you to ponder the fact that artistic and what you call political decisions regarding casting often emanate from different sources. 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 12:46pm

Rob120 said: "The level of passive racism in this thread should be astounding but I’m sadly not surprised. Clearly non BIPOCs saying “A Black Billy reinforces racial stereotypes” or more absurdly “miscegenation laws hadn’t been repealed” or worst of all “a Black Jenna changes what Waitress is about.” What you’re saying is that a Black Billy Bigelow or Jenna made you uncomfortable because it made you look outside of your own bubble, orit made you think about other people existing in your bubble. You’re fine with Black actors in period pieces as long as it’s Audra McDonald who you feel comfortable with. The problem isn’t Joshua Henry’s or Nicolette Robinson’s casting. It’s white audiences looking for any excuse to invalidate it. Open your mind, suspend your disbelief, explore your own biases and bigotries, and learn to celebrate talented performers having the opportunity to play a variety of roles."

100% this. All of it. Thank you for posting. 

[Rob120]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 12:49pm

joevitus said: 

Wrong."

You need to stretch your imagination a bit if you can suspend disbelief for Mame and Vera to sing Bosom Buddies but you can’t suspend if it one of them is Black because of the era Your arguments using Show Boat are straw man because Show Boat is specifically written ABOUT race and miscegenation.  And you know this. Don’t pretend to be dense.  There is a difference in racially blind casting and racially conscious casting.   

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 1:05pm

Rob120 said: "There is a difference in racially blind casting and racially conscious casting. "

To quote Sutton Ross (without permission): "100% this. All of it. Thank you for posting." And because you are NOT dense, you of course realize by now that you are barking up the wrong tree.

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/1/20 at 2:44pm

Rob120 said: "joevitus said:

Wrong."

You need to stretch your imagination a bit if you can suspend disbelief for Mame and Vera to sing Bosom Buddies but you can’t suspend if it one of them is Black because of the eraYourarguments using Show Boat are straw man because Show Boat is specifically written ABOUT race and miscegenation. And you know this. Don’t pretend to be dense. There is a difference in racially blind casting and racially conscious casting.

"

You are wrong and you are hijacking the conversation by making it about the people posting instead of about the subject. You and everyone agreeing with you is also, actually agreeing that there are some roles which people of color cant' be cast in, unless of course you think you can cast a person of color as Magnolia.

Updated On: 11/1/20 at 02:44 PM