Flops That Got Revivals- Page 4

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 12:03pm

But Kiss recouped on the road... does that count?

I don't see how it could have recouped. The Broadway loss was substantial (millions.) It never made any money to speak of pre-Broadway in Toronto or London and the tour was not out for very long. I seem to recall that teh LA run was cut short when sales dropped off.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 4:23pm

Yes, I was under the impression that Kiss of the Spider Woman never recouped.

[binau]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 4:51pm

"financial flop example : gypsy/SITPWG/watever sondheim show won a gazillion tonys... and closed 3 weeks later. "

I don't think we can pretend Sondheim has had amazing critical success in most of his shows, either...I can't verify this. But I'm sure if we look back a lot of his shows that were flops were also met with mixed (or not overwhelming) critical success..

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 5:14pm

"I don't think we can pretend Sondheim has had amazing critical success in most of his shows, either...I can't verify this. But I'm sure if we look back a lot of his shows that were flops were also met with mixed (or not overwhelming) critical success."

Well, it depends on your definition of overwhelming critical success. I've read the reviews for all of the shows, and with the exception of Pacific Overtures, Merrily and Assassins, they all got generally favorable reviews, and even Pacific Overtures got a whole bunch of favorable reviews. Not universally favorable, but generally favorable with many raves, some mixed and some negative.

Look at the New York Drama Critics' Circle Awards. The following shows for which he wrote both music and lyrics won the best musical award from the group: Company, Follies, A Little Night Music, Pacific Overtures, Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park With George, and Into the Woods. I may be misremembering but I think all of those except, strangely, A Little Night Music won on the first ballot with a simple majority.

[Ed_Mottershead]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 7:56pm

I believe that Little Me was a flop originally in terms of recoupment. It's interesting that it has had two Broadway revivals (okay, one was Roundabout) since the original. And I know that it's been mentioned on this thread before, but the granddaddy of 'em all was probably Candide -- two Broadway revivals (neither of which turned a profit), plus several productions at the New York State Theater.

[VonTussleGirl]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 9:33pm

so people like to describe them specifically as a financial flop to try and minimise idiocy like Zeitoujo's "omg u cant asy sondheim is floppy!!!!111!!!111!!!!" outburst.

Well, at his age, who WOULDN'T be floppy?

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 9:58pm

I don't think we can pretend Sondheim has had amazing critical success in most of his shows, either...I can't verify this. But I'm sure if we look back a lot of his shows that were flops were also met with mixed (or not overwhelming) critical success.

Here’s the status on the shows that opened on Broadway for commercial runs:

WEST SIDE STORY
Reviews - 7 Favourable
$ Status: HIT

GYPSY
Reviews - 7 Favourable
$ Status: HIT

A FUNNY THING…FORUM
Reviews - 5 Favourable, 1 mixed, 1 unfavorable
$ Status: HIT

ANYONE CAN WHISTLE
Reviews - 2 Favourable, 1 mixed, 3 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

DO I HEAR A WALTZ?
Reviews - 2 Favourable, 1 mixed, 3 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

COMPANY
Reviews - 5 Favourable, 1 unfavourable
$ Status: HIT

FOLLIES
Reviews - 4 Favourable, 1 mixed, 1 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC
Reviews - 3 Favourable, 1 mixed, 1 unfavourable
$ Status: HIT

PACIFIC OVERTURES
Reviews - 3 Favourable, 3 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

SIDE BY SIDE BY SONDHEIM
Reviews - 4 Favourable, 2 unfavourable
$ Status: HIT

SWEENEY TODD
Reviews - 5 Favourable, 1 unfavourable
$ Status: HIT (Show recouped post-Broadway)

MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG
Reviews - 1 Favourable, 5 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE
Reviews - 2 Favourable, 1 mixed, 4 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

INTO THE WOODS
Reviews: 8 Favourable, 6 mixed
$ Status: HIT (recouped post-Broadway)

PASSION
Reviews - 8 Favourable, 5 mixed, 10 unfavourable
$ Status: FLOP

Note that by the late 1980s Variety’s tabulation of reviews started taking in more than just the 7 major papers including radio, TV and some publications beyond New York.

Updated On: 11/5/08 at 09:58 PM

[binau]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 10:32pm

Frontrow, is that proof that I'm wrong or that his reception is in indeed, generally mixed? Because it looks pretty mixed to me :P.

66 Favourable vs 52 Mixed/unfavourable

Success rate 56% (Critically)

Updated On: 11/5/08 at 10:32 PM

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/5/08 at 10:57pm

Both actually. It's on a show by show basis but with 7 hits on the list especially in the post 1960's Braodway economy - is better than average.

I like that now there are more reviews being filed, but it makes it harder for any show to get across-the-board favourables. (Even on BWW every show has detractors.)

Posted: 11/5/08 at 11:18pm

It's true that Sondheim shows are never as appreciated by critics at the time as the reputation they nearly always seem to get, but I think, as shown here, it's a bit of an urban myth that they got as bad reviews as some people think.

[ErinDillyFan]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 9:57am

Frontrowcentre2: The post broadway runs or revivals don't count because it is almost always a different set of investors. If the original run didn't make back the initial investment it is a flop.

[Paul W. Thompson]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 10:54am

Well, certainly the "West Side Story" return engagement does count. And apparently in rare but well-documented cases the original investors in some other shows have had clauses whereby they finally got paid back, way after the Broadway engagements were over.

Personally, I think that those clauses should always be in investment contracts, if they help attract investors!

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 11:14am

ErinDillyfan, are you saying that SWEENEY should be re-classifieed as a flop?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 12:08pm

Let's not forget the revival of Take Me Along, which opened and closed on the same night. Guess we won't be seeing that show on Broadway again.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 12:56pm

Depending on the rights negotiated, most tours continue to profit the original producer.

In some cases, again, depending on the rights, the original producer can continue to earn royalty payments for any production of the piece in the next ten years or so. The idea is that the exposure provided by the original production inspired the other productions. Basically, the author would not be making any money off those productions if the original producer had never come along, so the author gives him a percentage of royalties as a sort of thank-you.

That means a producer can produce a show on Broadway and have it close a flop. Nine years later, someone else comes along and produces it and it's a huge hit. Without doing anything, the producer of the original production will earn royalties and perhaps eventually be able to recoup, turning the status of his original production into a hit.

[ProfessorG]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 1:16pm

Well how about a flop that should be a revival. I think the time is right for the return of 'The Robber Bridegroom.' Okay you're right...bad idea. But it was a cute show that got raves when it started in LA and then it took gas here.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 11/6/08 at 4:11pm

"Frontrow, is that proof that I'm wrong or that his reception is in indeed, generally mixed? Because it looks pretty mixed to me :P.

66 Favourable vs 52 Mixed/unfavourable

Success rate 56% (Critically)"

Or you could make it 83 favorable/mixed vs. 35 unfavourable.

But essentially I think those tallys are somewhat deceptive in terms of which reviews they counted.

That's not to say that any of the shows got universally favorable reviews. They didn't. But the overall critical reception for some of the shows was better than you'd necessarily think from those tallys.