Have you ever had to tell a student they weren't good enough for professional theatre?- Page 2

[broadway guy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 11:41am

"You keep going on about how a teacher should help with the audition piece -- but you never ASKED about that."

No i said it would help the student. I didnt say they needed to do anything. The teacher can do whatever the heck he or she wants.

"I would coach a student in the same way I would any other that came to me for help."

Thats what i figured.

"And no one here said they WOULDN'T help"

Good for them?

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 11:51am

>>What if that horrible student takes off a year to really hone his skills and get the professional help he needs ( voice training, acting workshops) etc etc and comes back a completely different person a year later?

Yup.
Ugly duckings can become swans. No one can predict. I understand about possibly wasting money, but if the student is enjoying what they do, the money is not really wasted.

Hindsight is always 20/20. It's very easy to look backward and say, "If I knew then, what I know now, I never would have wasted that money!"

But'cha can't. Not until afterward. The reverse could always happen, too. Someone could say, "I should have stuck with it".

(I feel like there's a wistful Jerry Herman song in here, somewhere...) Updated On: 5/26/13 at 11:51 AM

[broadway guy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 11:54am

"but if the student is enjoying what they do, the money is not really wasted."

I think its being wasted if the kid has no chance of succeeding but at the same time if the kid REALLY wants it and takes the necessary steps to get it than he will succeed. right?

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 11:57am

^^
It's a Jerry Herman song, broadway guy. ... a very Jerry Herman song.

[tazber]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 11:59am

[pndmnd]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:00pm

First of all, all forms of art are subjective. Just because you don't think that someone "has it" doesn't mean that someone else will agree. And as a teacher you should NEVER tell a student that they won't cut it. Be honest with all of your students about what the business is really like, but it really isn't your place to tell them not to try.

Second, maybe they just haven't found their genre yet. Yes, some performers are able to work in multiple areas, but many can't. Maybe they just haven't found the right genre yet, or maybe they haven't figured out their "type" (and really, your type in high school or even college is likely to be different than your type in the professional world).

Third, it sounds like you are asking in relation to auditioning for college programs. Anyone applying to college or a training school after high school should ALWAYS be encouraged to target multiple programs (with varying levels of competitiveness/admissions standards), regardless of the field that they want to go into. Plus, I've seen high school students who ALWAYS got the lead be turned away from almost every program that they audition for, and students who were ALWAYS in the chorus end up being accepted by programs that are considered top notch. It really depends on what the program sees in them.

When I was in college I helped recruit for my program, and would frequently sit in on the auditions. I can't speak for all programs, but I know that mine generally preferred someone who was teachable and who they felt would work hard, regardless of natural talent. If they had the time they would give the student some adjustments to their monologue or song and have them do it again to see how well they took direction.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:02pm

Two people who were told they had no talent and should quit the business: Edward Norton and Sigourney Weaver.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:03pm

No. Hard work is not enough. Nor is talent. There is an awful lot of luck, and look involved. And attitude. And a plethora of other things.

[tazber]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:03pm

I can't imagine a world without Ellen Ripley as played by Sigourney.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:30pm

"It's a Jerry Herman song, broadway guy. ... a very Jerry Herman song."

Oh i see. Very classy

[East Village]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:32pm

Some rock star I can't remember told this to a young musician. He said if you got a choice between going to law school or following your music, then go to law school. People in this business didn't have a choice -- we're bat **** crazy and couldn't do anything else. That advice seems true for most of the creative or commercial arts.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:34pm

I've heard similarly: if you can imagine yourself doing ANYTHING else, you should do it.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 12:57pm

My high school voice teacher told me not to even minor in music, haha. Apparently I suck too much at music theory. I mean, really, I wasn't even going to pursue it for a career, I was just wondering about a minor...

Updated On: 5/26/13 at 12:57 PM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 1:01pm

It is not a teachers place to tell a student not to pursue a career.

A school I went to kicked out Robin Williams because they thought he was too u focused and told him he would not be a professional.

Look what happened to him.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 1:08pm

"My high school voice teacher told me not to even minor in music, haha. Apparently I suck too much at music theory. I mean, really, I wasn't even going to pursue it for a career, I was just wondering about a minor..."

Ouch *hugs*. Did you end up doing it anyway or did you choose something else?

[trentsketch]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 1:11pm

I haven't because it's not my place to.

What I've learned from the best teachers I've had is to encourage the students to develop the things they're good at. The main school I work for has a great stage crew and lighting/sound crew program. The teacher makes every student in her theater classes work some kind of crew during class time--even makeup, costumes, props, publicity, etc.--so they experience all aspects of theater. The students who want to be involved but don't want to act quickly find a home in crew. This school has graduated a lot of students who want to be professional stage managers, lighting designers, and makeup artists because the program encourages the students to try all aspects of theater.

Normally, the students who want to be professional performers actually have the ability to succeed if they want to. The ones just interested in the fame angle don't make it through many shows because they're not willing to put the work in. Most of the kids just do theater for fun or to have it on their college applications.

And, to get personal for a minute, a big reason I don't do that is my own teachers. My chorus teacher told me I was really an instrumentalist. My band teacher told me I should pursue theater. My theater teacher told me I should major in vocal performance. I majored in none of those fields because not one of my teachers would recommend their specialty to me. Now I vocal music direct and arrange instrumental scoring for plays for educational theater programs. My undergraduate degree is in Literature. I don't know where I'd be if I actually wasn't discouraged from pursuing music or theater as an undergraduate. I just know that, thanks to my teachers pushing me in different directions, I didn't have that opportunity.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 1:48pm

Ouch *hugs*. Did you end up doing it anyway or did you choose something else?

Nope, I picked a neuroscience minor--it was more relevant to my major, which was psychology. I did keep taking voice lessons for a few years in graduate school, though (with a new teacher). And I took a music theory class in undergrad, although it was for people who weren't majoring in music.

Updated On: 5/26/13 at 01:48 PM

[BwayTday]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 3:36pm

I completely agree that a teacher shouldn't dash a student's dreams, as it really is their place to try to breed some love for the art that they are teaching. What I found though, especially at the High School level, is I gradually had to stop trusting the validity of the compliments I got from some teachers because they would praise some work that was clearly awful. So they would give me a compliment on a piece, and then just hyperbolically laud something that was just not good. So, I had to question whether or not they were just trying to encourage the student or were sincere and had very bad taste.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 3:54pm

Or maybe, they were complimenting a student that showed growth. I have been know to tell a student that what they just showed me was their best work. Doesn't mean that it was fabulous work, but that their personal improvement was remarkable. When it comes to art, you can't even compare comments. (Of course, that varies with each person.)

Lastly, what I tell all my students-- you need to take ANY info you are given and decide for yourself what is valid and what is not.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 3:59pm

dramamama611: Do you teach High school or college?

[John Adams]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 4:00pm

Either way, you're getting a lesson regarding how much stock you choose to put in reviews.

Once folks leave high school, they get the opportunity to actually choose who they train with. Even under those circumstances, you always have the choice to accept/reject the praise or criticism.

Public reviews are a unique characteristic of the acting profession. Just part of the job.

[BwayTday]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 5:04pm

Oh I completely agree with both of you. Sorry if I came off as vapid or arrogant. In this case, I truly do think it was just the two teachers with strange tastes, but I totally see the point both of you make in deciding whether or not a criticism is valid or not and how much stock to put into it. It's just another facet of the business, as John Adams said.

[Plannietink08]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 5:33pm

I was told by my High School drama teacher I wouldn't never be able to support myself in the industry. So, just to spite her, I auditioned and got myself in Central School of Speech and Drama in London.
An agent and some professional gigs later ... sucks to be her.
Ewan McGregor was told by RADA he was the worst actor they'd ever seen. Whether that is true or not, he's more successful than them now.
It definitely is not up to a teacher to tell a student they'll never make it ... they say those who can't DO, TEACH!
Tell them exactly what they need to work on, dear God be BRUTAL towards them but never, EVER tell them they don't have what it takes!

[Patronus]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 5:42pm

Sadly, any educator who has to ask this question is on more of an incorrect career path than their student who may or may not be able to cut it in the industry.

If only they had some asshole "mentor" tell them, "Sorry kid, you're not cut out to be a teacher."

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 5/26/13 at 8:19pm

As a teacher, it is your job to teach and offer constructive criticism. It is not your job to tell a student that they have no chance at succeeding in the career that they have chosen. Besides, there are plenty of terrible working actors out there making paychecks, and getting professional work. Just because a student isn't what you would ever look for, does not mean that someone else won't be looking for him/her.

If the student is really that bad, it will be figured out sooner or later, and all on their own.