How about a black version of FOLLIES?- Page 2
How about a black version of FOLLIES?
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#25
Posted: 7/2/18 at 12:41pm
The Distinctive Baritone said: "Dave, I think most of us lefties agree that doing the "black" version of a show (like the Pearl BaileyHello Dolly!) is, today,actually in many ways more racist than deliberately excluding black actors from an all-white production. That's white I was trying to politely communicate."
It's not about which one is worse. They are both bad.
Doing the same thing in return because you feel you have somehow earned the right is just as wrong.
GeorgeandDot, I totally agree with you.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#26
Posted: 7/2/18 at 1:02pm
ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "I think casting all one race version of productions is something that is not very done often."
This is interesting, a good example is the Sound of Music movie. This could be considered an all white cast. If the movie woud be made today, one of the children would be black, or the Barones, or the Captain or whatever.
In this particular project, that would not feel as truthful, given the setting and time.
There is a difference between "deliberately excluding black actors" and "casting that works best". This difference seems to be hard to understand for people.
These forced current "all black" topics, deliberately excluding whites, are not the same as something as The Sound of Music film.
Because if there is true equality, not everybody has to be in everything, and that should not matter.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#27
Posted: 7/2/18 at 1:50pm
Why specifically all black? If you want more racial diversity, why not just a non-white production?
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#28
Posted: 7/2/18 at 2:04pm
The Distinctive Baritone said: "Folliesis about the all-white Ziegfield Follies."
I know of two African American performers in Ziegfeld Follies, Josephine Baker and Bert Williams. Perhaps there were others.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#29
Posted: 7/2/18 at 4:53pm
Follies is about the all-white Ziegfield Follies.
WTF? Follies is about characters reuniting their participation in the Weismann's Follies. It's FICTIONAL and race is in no way central to the story or themes of the show. GAWD.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#30
Posted: 7/2/18 at 8:22pm
Now that it's been established that black performers were in fact in numerous Ziegfeld Follies, I'm sure audiences back in 1971 would have been thrilled (and not even questioned) seeing Lena Horne on stage singing "I'm Still Here." Only thing is she was much too big a star to ever play Carlotta.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#31
Posted: 7/2/18 at 9:04pmMy point is is that there is a certain amount of erasure that happens when you have a POC play an originally white role, and that rather than dream-cast the fourth Broadway production of Follies, let’s fantasize about a real future for the theatre.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#32
Posted: 7/2/18 at 10:50pm
BrodyFosse123 said: "Or MAME?"
It would be interesting to see an all-black ensemble sing the lyrics in the title song that have now acquired an uncomfortably racist connotation:
You've got the banjos strumming
And plunking out a tune to beat the band!
The whole plantation's humming
Since you brought Dixie back to Dixieland!
You make the cotton easy to pick, Ma-ame!
You give my old mint julep a kick, Ma-ame!
Whoever thought a Yankee would
Put our little Dixie belles to shame?
You've made us feel alive again!
You've given us the drive again
TO MAKE THE SOUTH REVIVE AGAIN, MAME!
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/25/11
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#33
Posted: 7/2/18 at 11:10pm
Agree with any and (mostly) all of that.
Personally, my initial response was "what clickbait nonsense!" But, being a Follies fan, I wondered if it might actually make sense as adding a different perspective (rather than just swapping races). The fact that the Harlem nightclub and theater scene of the early 20th century is a fascinating milieu, and the sparse book of Follies leaves much of the backstory to the characters open, started me thinking.
As Sondheim has often agreed for differing stagings and casting of his works - ok to try it to see if the change actually adds anything. (once)
Whether changing races and moving uptown would add anything is a very different question.
Updated On: 7/2/18 at 11:10 PM
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#34
Posted: 7/2/18 at 11:13pmYes, but then the title and the titular sequence would lose their triple-entendre and, in the case of the latter, the content that dictates the form.
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/25/11
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#35
Posted: 7/2/18 at 11:42pmSally Durant Plummer said: "Yes, but then the title and the titular sequence would lose their triple-entendre and, in the case of the latter, the content that dictates the form."
No one needs to lose their titulars. (I was referring to a Cotton Club-esque follies. As we all know there were follies long before Mr. Zigfield and will be long after)
Updated On: 7/2/18 at 11:42 PM
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#36
Posted: 7/3/18 at 2:55am
I’m sorry, but it seems like what a lot people are saying is because the original Ziegfeld Follies (which is not the FICTIONAL Weissman Follies) and other similar “downtown” revues were excluisitory and segregated, that therefor the Sondheim/Goldman 1971 musical titled “Follies” is about while people and the meaning/character/themes would be lost and changed, for worse and unacceptably to many of you, if cast with only, or predominantly, black performers (or generally non-white performers)?
I don’t believe this is a real, or valid, point when talking about my favorite musical of all time. Sure, this show was created by white people. That’s a fact. However, I believe his work cuts deep enough and is well written enough for people of any color and background to play almost any of his roles without sacrificing one ounce of artistic integrity/expression.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#37
Posted: 7/3/18 at 4:43amsome people in this thread need to google what racism actually is lol
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#38
Posted: 7/3/18 at 8:30am
gypsy101 said: "some people in this thread need to google what racism actually is lol"
I totally agree. And not even all google hits are accurate.
Racism is the exceptionalistic idea that races can be ranked as superior and inferior compared to eachother. This can result in different standards for one race over another.
What is happening everywhere, and also in this thread is that people continue to separate. An "all 1 color" version of anything just because you feel you have the right to demand it 100% based on color only, is racism.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#40
Posted: 7/3/18 at 9:18am
Black is synonymous with diversity!
Only in America.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#41
Posted: 7/3/18 at 9:31am
My point is is that there is a certain amount of erasure that happens when you have a POC play an originally white role.
That is absurd. The writing isn't being altered and it has no effect whatsoever on memories or records of prior productions. And what about the reverse? Do you believe there was "erasure" in a white man playing Benny in Rent (I use as an example because I've seen it)? Or what about non-white actors like Lea Salonga in Once On This Island? I saw Audra McDonald as Dot in Sunday in the Park With George at Ravinia and there was no erasure for me at all. Nothing in the work, the story or the memory of prior productions changed for me in the least. If there is a certain amount of erasure for anyone with POC playing roles formerly performed by white actors in shows where race is not central to the theme or plot, then it occurs solely the mind of the viewer.
rather than dream-cast the fourth Broadway production of Follies, let’s fantasize about a real future for the theatre.
There is no future for theatre in closed-minded casting.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#42
Posted: 7/3/18 at 10:17am
Dancingthrulife2 said: "Black is synonymous with diversity!
Only in America."
Yes, black people have a very special place in American history and culture for many reasons.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#43
Posted: 7/3/18 at 10:25am
Sally Durant Plummer said: "This is one of the threads I spoke about last night, where it seems that (relatively new) posters ask rather dumb questions for the sole purpose of posting often, or tricking other posters into looking under the bridge."
this right here is a perfect answer to this thread...
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#44
Posted: 7/3/18 at 10:38am
Mister Matt -
You misunderstand me. POC actors have argued recently is that although "being allowed" to play originally white roles is great, there's something about it which erases their own IDENTITY. That's what I mean by erasure. It's like, "Thanks for giving me the opportunity to play Blache DuBois in Streetcar, but next time, rather than asking me to try to fit myself into a dusty old play that's really about white people, can we do a show that's not by a dead white guy?" The point is, although "reinventing" the classics with diverse casting and other new ideas is great, many POC are tired of feeling like "guests" in the predominantly white institution of theatre.
I may be white, but I am married to a Latina, and my daughter is therefore Latina, so as a theatre artist and educator I do have a rather personal investment in this. Lay off the personal attacks and save your self-righteousness for someone who actually is "closed-minded." Thanks.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#45
Posted: 7/3/18 at 12:19pm
Demitri2 said: "Now that it's been established that black performers were in fact in numerous Ziegfeld Follies, I'm sure audiences back in 1971 would have been thrilled (and not even questioned) seeing Lena Horne on stage singing I'm Still Here."
Now that'cha mention it, I'd love to see Jennifer Lewis play/sing the role of Carlotta. I would bet her I'm Still Here could bring the house down. 
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#46
Posted: 7/3/18 at 1:04pm
SH*T, I wanna see Jenifer Lewis do Lovett in Sweeney Todd. In fact, while I'm on that subject, here's an idea I once had for a mostly black Sondheim production, in this case Sweeney. I came up with the idea based on a remark Chris Bond made in his foreword to the mass market paperback edition of the Sweeney libretto.
In reading it, my attention was drawn immediately to two things: one, the unusual notion that an author would be so excited by someone’s adaptation of their work that they would willingly direct a later production of said adaptation (at the Liverpool Playhouse in 1981, in this instance), and two, a little idea he had for costuming the ensemble. I’ll quote the relevant portion:
"…when I have directed the show I have always shifted the emphasis of the first two scenes of Act II by having grotesquely frock-coated and crinolined figures in half-masks as Mrs. Lovett’s customers and Sweeney’s anonymous victims because I don’t want people involved with them. Visually, this ties up with the dumb-show rape of Sweeney’s wife in Act I, and I like the idea that the pie shop and barber shop have become a chic venue for the gentry to attend – the white folks slumming it in Harlem, so to speak."
Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but I read that last turn of phrase (bold for emphasis mine) and immediately pictured the barber shop culture of the Harlem Renaissance era, and thought about the reviews that a racially charged cast might receive. Pair that with Sondheim’s ideal rendering [an environmental staging that kept the show close to the audience with smoke and streetlamps and fog rising from the floor “and somebody would pop up beside you and scare you to death"], perhaps specifically using Bond’s pared-down approach (cast of ten, orchestra of five), and you’ve got a compelling show.
Anthony Hope………Leslie Odom Jr.
Sweeney Todd……..Norm Lewis
Beggar Woman………Audra McDonald*
Mrs. Nellie Lovett………Jenifer Lewis
Adolfo Pirelli………Billy Porter
Judge Turpin………George Hearn**
Beadle Bamford……..Ethan Slater***
Johanna Barker………Adrienne Warren
Tobias Ragg………Anthony Ramos
Bird Seller / Jonas Fogg………Eliseo Román
* if one wanted to follow the current “in an actual pie shop” revival’s approach, one could also have Audra double the Beggar Woman and Pirelli; I think it’d be a tour de force
** I liked when he did the Judge opposite Michael Cerveris at Sondheim’s 80th, and I feel like it’s an interesting passing of the torch, considering so many other Sweeneys – Timothy Nolen comes to mind – have graduated to the Judge
*** I watched him at the Tonys, and I’m sure he’s lovable as SpongeBob, but I just found him the appropriate level of creepy for this
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How about a black version of FOLLIES?#47
Posted: 7/3/18 at 1:47pm
It's like, "Thanks for giving me the opportunity to play Blache DuBois in Streetcar, but next time, rather than asking me to try to fit myself into a dusty old play that's really about white people, can we do a show that's not by a dead white guy?"
So, you're saying they audition for and accept roles they don't really want? I mean, everybody does to a certain degree based on individual needs, but I don't know if I truly believe that all POC carry chips on their shoulders with respect to colorblind casting revivals. Do you believe that's how Audra McDonald felt about her roles in Carousel and 110 in the Shade? Or Brian Stokes Mitchell in Kiss Me Kate and Man of La Mancha? Or Joshua Henry in Carousel? It sounds like those who believe erasure occurs in the actors due to diversity in casting and that such diversity is considered a "reinvention" rather than a revival. That particular attitude sounds like it's pushing theatre backward, not forward as it just turns back the clock on all revival productions. And then you start treading into the more sensitive areas that POC should only play POC roles written by POC and we're back to segregating POC and their access to roles again.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#48
Posted: 7/3/18 at 2:10pm
Invoking Streetcar is a particularly bad example, since it as a text and a play in particular focuses subtextually on race and class. Only a Prince-esque "Concept" production might make it work and make sense, which is why in the last revival (and the second to last revival of Cat On a Hot Tin Roof) didn't work. But that wasn't the actor's fault - the actors are all talented indivudials who deserve to work, and the (artistic) failures of the productions lies squarely on the directors.
How about a black version of FOLLIES?#49
Posted: 7/3/18 at 2:23pm
Matt, You're putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to speak for POC, but the impression I've been getting is that although getting to play great roles in traditionally "white" plays is nice, POC actors want to take it to the next level and also have more plays by POC, with roles specifically written for POC. This seems to me to be a reasonable request, and one that would benefit audiences, actors, and theatre in general.
We also need to have more POC as artistic directors, etc., so that these plays are not just boxes being checked off ("Black play?" Check. "Latino play?" Check.) by white people running theatre companies that mostly white people attend.
And let's be honest - not a lot of black people are going to want to see a revival of Follies. It would be black actors performing for a bunch of 50+, white people and would be dangerously close to a minstrel show. That's why I shut down this idea so quickly.
I really having nothing else to say on this matter. If fantasizing about Audra MacDonald singing "The Story of Lucy and Jessie" surrounded by a smiling chorus of black people, for a bunch of middle aged white tourists at $200 a ticket makes your day better, knock yourself out.
EDIT:
Sally, I mentioned Streetcar because despite the fact Williams' plays are all very much about white Southerners in the 1940's and don't lend themselves to reinterpretation very well, people keep on doing them with "diverse" casts in productions that neither make sense nor do anything to further the advancement of theatre in the 21st century other than give POC actors "opportunities" to do white plays at white theatre companies. If I were a POC, I'd tell the the white artistic director to shove their "opportunity" up their ass and cast me in a new work by a POC playwright.
But that's just me. I'm just a white guy with a Latino family, trying to make sure that I can do at least something to advance the American theatre along a little bit in my lifetime. I don't have the answers.
Okay, now I'm done.
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