How much of HELLO, DOLLY did Herman write?

[WalkOn]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 9:32pm

I have it from a pretty reliable source that

BEFORE THE PARADE PASSES BY was actually written by Strouse and Adams.

ELEGANCE was written by Bob Merrill

and

HELLO, DOLLY was "cribbed" from a song called SUNFLOWER.


He is so talented.. it is hard to believe that ghost writers would be necessary.

Updated On: 9/12/06 at 09:32 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 9:57pm

Doubtful...

According to many sources... Merrick had Herman confined in a hotel room on the road and had him write "Before the Parade Passes By" overnight, so I doubt your source is reliable.

Unless, Strouse and Adams were hiding under the bed...

Besides that song SOUNDS like Herman... and nothing like anything Strouse and Adams ever wrote.

EDIT: While we're on the subject, I had "heard" that Sondheim stole the Night Waltz in "A Little Night Music" from a student who showed him his work.

Should we believe that too?

Updated On: 9/12/06 at 09:57 PM

[Smaxie]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 10:18pm

Conventional wisdom has it that Bob Merrill wrote "Elegance" and "Motherhood".

Apparently, Strouse and Adams did write a song called "Before the Parade Passes By" at Merrick's behest, but Herman supposedly took the title but wrote his own song.

Updated On: 9/12/06 at 10:18 PM

[Jon]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 10:32pm

Meanwhile, he stole from himself for MAME - the chorus of We Need a Little Xmas is nearly identical to It Takes A Woman.

And the title song of the Richard Rodgers/Martin Charnin musicaL TWO BY TWO sounds an awful lot like "Elegance".

For that matter, "Easy Come, Easy Go" from Rodgers & Charnin's I REMEMBER MAMA sounds an awful lot like "Easy Street" from Strouse & Charnin's ANNIE.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 10:58pm

If I had a nickel for every time a composer "stole" from himself...


EDIT: smaxie... "conventional wisdom??"

Updated On: 9/12/06 at 10:58 PM

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 9/12/06 at 11:47pm

Charles Strouse has written a letter attesting that Herman's BEFORE THE PARADE PASSES BY is his own creation. I believe it is included in the Herman bio, JERRY HERMAN: POET OF THE SHOWTUNE.

And while we're on the subject, TIME HEALS EVERYTHING and I'LL BE HERE TOMORROW (from THE GRAND TOUR) follow virtually the same harmonic progression.






Stinky Good-For-Nothing
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Updated On: 9/12/06 at 11:47 PM

[philcrosby]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 10:13am

Herman has confirmed publicly that ELEGANCE is by Merrill. (Herman could never write such "un-elegant" rhymes.)

And yes, he got the title for BEFORE THE PARADE... from Strouse and Adams.

Let us not forget, DOLLY was a huge flop-in-the-making out of town. Merrick was not known for his loyalty and thought by "scaring" his writers and composers with being fires, he would get better work out of them. PARADE was written in Detroit, I think, and replaced a song for Vandergelder that ended Act One called, "Penny in my Pocket."

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 10:43am

Fascinating question.

Yes, Merrill wrote "Elegance." And yes, "Dolly" was a huge hit.

But let me ask you this: Who wrote half the songs for "Fiddler" that same decade? Hint: It wasn't Bock and Harnick.

I'm just saying.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 10:54am

Musical theatre is littered with ghost writers. A particular composer of Guys and Dolls has long been rumored to have written some songs for another big Tony winner and perennial summer stock/community theatre favorite.

Also, I have it on good word that a recent Tony winner had most of its songs practically rewritten by the orchestrator because they were practically worthless as originally written. Whether it's true or not is just conjecture, but there it is.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:00am

"Musical theatre is littered with ghost writers. A particular composer of Guys and Dolls has long been rumored to have written some songs for another big Tony winner and perennial summer stock/community theatre favorite.

Also, I have it on good word that a recent Tony winner had most of its songs practically rewritten by the orchestrator because they were practically worthless as originally written. Whether it's true or not is just conjecture, but there it is."

Oh, for Christ's sake, who are you talking about?

I assume you are alluding to Mel Brooks, and that certainly is the truth.

However, if I'm wrong, and you have the dirt, why on earth are you withholding it?

Inquiring minds want to know. It's a freaking website.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:02am

There are many reasons to withhold it, namely that I only have word from the orchestrator and that could just be wishful thinking.
Wouldn't you want people to think YOU actually wrote a Tony-winning score?
As for Mel Brooks, I feel sorry for anyone who later wants credit for having ghostwritten that score.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:09am

Updated On: 9/13/06 at 11:09 AM

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:09am

"here are many reasons to withhold it, namely that I only have word from the orchestrator and that could just be wishful thinking.
Wouldn't you want people to think YOU actually wrote a Tony-winning score?"

I'm not buying this. Here's the thing. It must suck for Jerry Herman that "Dolly" is not entirely his score. That said, it doesn't negate the fact that Herman wrote a mostly great score for "Dolly." He did. The score that he wrote is GREAT.

HOWEVER, if I were Herman, I'd be a bit ashamed. Because at least two songs of that score (and perhaps three) don't belong to him. And he continues to take all the royalties for them. Two songs have been conclusively proven to be Bob Merrill's, and one is rumored to be a Harnick and Bock.

I'm just saying.
Updated On: 9/13/06 at 11:09 AM

[WOSQ]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:26am

Steve Suskin worked for Merrick in the 60s and would cut Dolly royalty checks to Herman and smaller ones to Merrill and smaller ones yet to Adams/Strouse. The last wrote a song called "Before The Parade Passes By" that was 'adapted' by Herman into the song we know, whatever that means.

As for Two By Two and its title song, that was Richard Rodgers' revenge for hearing the melody to "Come take your medicine, Dear World" and finding it perilously close to "Oh, What a Beautiful Morning".

Sing them. They are very close, too close.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 11:27am

Not buying what?
I'm simply saying what's to stop a person from pushing out a rumor that they wrote a significant portion of the music for a show that won someone else a Tony award? It certainly might backfire but it might also gain said person some notoriety as well.

But, back to the plot, as often as the Music Man/Loesser stories have circulated, I've never once heard anything about Fiddler.

[Jon]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 12:15pm

Yes, "My White Knight" sounds more like it belongs in "Most Happy Fella" than "Music Man".

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 12:17pm

I have never heard any of these things...fascinating.

Of course, I did hear that THE PRODUCERS' score isn't completely Brooks' - but that's obvious anyway.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 12:40pm

"Not buying what?
I'm simply saying what's to stop a person from pushing out a rumor that they wrote a significant portion of the music for a show that won someone else a Tony award? It certainly might backfire but it might also gain said person some notoriety as well."

I'm just saying spill the "rumor" or don't. How hard is that? The truth will always come out, this thread is proof of that. Again, do you have something to spill, or not?

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 12:42pm

I totally agree.

I have no patience for people on these boards who say "I know this but can't tell." Either tell, or don't.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 12:46pm

"Steve Suskin worked for Merrick in the 60s and would cut Dolly royalty checks to Herman and smaller ones to Merrill and smaller ones yet to Adams/Strouse. The last wrote a song called "Before The Parade Passes By" that was 'adapted' by Herman into the song we know, whatever that means. "

Now, HERE is something interesting.

Suskin was involved? How fascinating.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:00pm

I have no patience on this board for people who can't tolerate other people's personalities. But hey, even jacka$$es are sometimes necessary, too.

ETA: Veuve, where did you copy that from?
Updated On: 9/13/06 at 01:00 PM

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:03pm

Ooh, this is even more fascinating.

The guy (or gal) who just implicated Suskin just dissapeared.

Come back, love. I just want to know.

[BwayStar]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:04pm

I can't stand people who can't stand people either! Excellent point.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:07pm

"ETA: Veuve, where did you copy that from?"

Darling, I cut and pasted that from who knows where. I always cut and past everything.

It was a real cut and paste, however.

And I'm dying to know who from.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:10pm

Wait, that was a cut from the thread? ok, at least that makes sense. I thought maybe you cut something out of a Suskin article or something and I was just hoping for a link.

As far as my reticence to "out" someone as a ghostwriter, I'd rather not. I see people who know them a lot and why would I start a rumor? My only real point was that it still apparently happens or is purported to happen.