How much of HELLO, DOLLY did Herman write?- Page 4

[allofmylife]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 8:50pm

Why don't we leave it like this...

Question: "How much of Hello Dolly did Jerry Herman write?"

Answer: "Exactly enough."

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 9:33pm

What did Herman write for BEN FRANKLIN IN PARIS?
HALF THE BATTLE sounds like his style, and different from most of the score.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 10:47pm

I think maybe, you don't know who bk is...

Oh for crap's sake, how could any of us NOT?

But his hysterical ranting in this thread comes off less like a professional record producer and more like Shakespeare's Lady Who Doth Protest Too Much.

Ratchet it down a notch or two, BK, and maybe someone will believe you.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 12:55am

"What did Herman write for BEN FRANKLIN IN PARIS?"

He wrote "To Be Alone With You" (which I think was singled out by several critics as one of the best songs in the show) and "Too Charming."

I think "To Be Alone With You" is one of Herman's great songs.

[bk]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 2:09am

"But his hysterical ranting in this thread comes off less like a professional record producer and more like Shakespeare's Lady Who Doth Protest Too Much.

Ratchet it down a notch or two, BK, and maybe someone will believe you."

Please point out this "hysterical ranting." I was neither hysterical nor ranting, just telling what I know. Why, just like you do, Pal Joey - over and over and over and over. And what does my being a professional record producer have to do with this thread, other than I've been friendly with some of the people mentioned here. But then again, I don't live on this site like you do, Pal Joey - I just don't like to see the ridiculous and unnecessary besmirching of people with rumors and innuendo like Frank Loesser wrote Till There Was You - I mean honestly. Nobodyhome got it right. If you think setting the record straight is hysterical and ranting, wonderful.

As to people believing or not believing - well, as I said earlier, it's more fun to have conjecture and rumor than truth. Oh, and Happy New Year.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 4:25am

"Sondheim has spoken at length (and often negatively) about his own contributions to WSS; I've wondered if one could maybe get a clue about Bernstein's lyric contributions by eliminating the lyrics Sondheim has 'claimed' and seeing what's left."

I think pretty much every song is almost entirely Sondheim's, except for a few words here and there. On page 115 of Secrest's Sondheim bio (a mediocre, very flawed book, but what'cha gonna do?), Sondheim quotes some of Bernstein's original lyric for "I Have a Love": "Once in your life, only once in your life / Comes a flash of fire and light . . . And there stands your love / The harvest of your years." If Sondheim is upset about Maria singing "It's alarming how charming I feel" (which I think he's completely wrong about), what must he feel about the possibility that Maria might have sung "And there stands your love / The harvest of your years"? Why would a teenage girl sing about her love being the harvest of her years? Very strange.

It's funny because Bernstein did write some pretty good lyrics, as folks have mentioned. At least as long as he was writing comedic lyrics, he did pretty well. But in Trouble in Tahiti, the music for Dinah's big aria in the psychiatrist's office is glorious, but the words? Not so much.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 8:51am

I think perhaps "sudden aggression" is a better description than "hysterical ranting."

[Jon]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 11:50am

Bernstein wrote some pretty damned funny lyrics for "I Am Easily Assimilated" in Candide.

[sparrman]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 12:58pm

"But in Trouble in Tahiti, the music for Dinah's big aria in the psychiatrist's office is glorious, but the words? Not so much."

I don't think those words are so bad, but I think it's probably true Bernstein was a better comedic lyricist than a serious one.

I also don't think BK is guilty of any "hysterical" behavior here. I don't know who he is, though I guess I could spend 10 minutes on the Internet looking for cast album producers and figure it out. If he has expertise, I appreciate him sharing it.

In my mind, there's nothing wrong with rumor being presented here as just that: "I heard a rumor...". The only problem to me is when someone tries to assert that something is the absolute truth, when they don't have any concrete proof. And that's what BK was doing. Yes, it may very well be that Willson wrote every note of "My White Knight". Barbara Cook's testimony on that point is meaningful. BK's isn't nearly so.
Updated On: 1/2/09 at 12:58 PM

[LadyDramaturg2]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 4:47pm

raker said,
"Strouse tells the story in his recent memoir. He and Adams were hired to doctor the show, and they wrote songs that were never used. Strouse said unambiguously that it was Jerry Herman who wrote the music for Hello Dolly and not Strouse and Adams"

And at about 3:15 this morning, I think, I heard him say the same thing to a filmmaker (Amber Edwards) about it, and it was too late for me to get up and find a tape to shove into the whatsis so I don't have the exact language, but after Strouse told the story of JH being ambushed out-of-town by numerous score-doctors etc., Jerry said that Merrick came to him and said, well, it's Up To You.

And he wrote Before The Parade Passes By in five minutes, and the rest is history.

That doesn't mean that Strouse et al. didn't get checks, because (in this particular case) the stipulations of their doctoring-contracts could have been written a hundred ways. So,

When bk wrote earlier (above),
” Frank Loesser wrote not one note of The Music Man - had he, he would receive contractual royalties, and I've seen the contracts and he doesn't. That's how it works...”

Pal Joey responded, but I thought he was reacting only to the absolute-sounding “That’s how it works” when he wrote,
That's not necessarily true. [For example,] I receive a percentage of the royalties for a relatively obscure show I worked on, and my name is not in the "grand rights contract." I thought PJ was just saying that "that's not how it works" in every case. Mom, dad, please don't fight.

I thought that in the documentary, Strouse and Herman spoke very forthrightly, as though this version of events was substantially what had happened. Someone might say that the royalty checks make it really easy to shade the truth, but the whole story sounded pretty cohesive, imho.

Updated On: 1/2/09 at 04:47 PM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 5:05pm

That's how I read PJ's message, too, LadyD2.

And bk's seemed to say "If I don't know about it personally, it couldn't possibly have happened."

[ggersten]

Posted: 1/2/09 at 7:22pm

I have no knowledge to add to this discussion, but I can add this saying:

Igor Stravinsky (and others) is reputed to say "Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal."

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 7:51am

I have just finished reading from a book entitled BROADWAY SONG & STORY in which playwrights, composers and lyricists discuss their hits with a moderator from the Dramatists Guild. In a chapter devoted to Jerry Herman, he describes writing "Before the Parade Passes By" "in about 20 minutes in a hotel room in Detroit under the most awful conditions, with everyone screaming at me because the first act finale wasn't working. I
love that song. I love what it says, the way it says it, the simplicty, and the way it just poured out."

Updated On: 1/3/09 at 07:51 AM

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:10pm

Ok.. Let me preface this with saying that I have no proof to support the opinion I'm about to express. Let me also add that I LOVE Jerry Herman and have nothing but the highest regard for his work.

But...

I have NEVER bought the I wrote PARADE PASSES BY number in a hotel room out-of-town story. He and Channing have that story down so pat that I get suspicious...

Add to that, when I was growing up and listening to the DOLLY cast recording there were a handful of songs that didn't sound very "Herman:" MOTHERHOOD, ELEGANCE... and PARADE PASSES BY.

Again, I have nothing to point to other than my gut feeling..but those three songs always "pricked" my ear in a way that made me think they were written by someone else.

But that is just me.


P.S.

I also had the same reaction to the new songs in the film SOUND OF MUSIC.. it was much later in life that I found out the Hammerstein hadn't written the lyrics.

So I trust my ear.

[gypsy4]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:22pm

sort off topic but did Charles strouse and martin charnin write all the new songs that were added to the 1982 version Annie? (lets go to the movies, Dumb Dog, Sign, we got annie) the only actual song that was added that I enjoy is we got Annie and that is one song I know they wrote but what about the others. I wouldn't think the original writers would want to ruin the show by writing a song that would replace tomorrow.

Updated On: 1/3/09 at 12:22 PM

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:30pm

From what I understand it wasn't creative team that had a say. The rights were sold and the producers could do with the material as they wished.

I'm pretty sure legendary film director John Huston didn't like the song TOMORROW. So they moved it to the opening credits(he didn't even like it there) and filled the empty spot with DUMB DOG.

If there ever was a director/material mis-match, it was Houston and ANNIE.

Updated On: 1/3/09 at 12:30 PM

[gypsy4]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:32pm

I was just saying I don't think martin and charles wouldn't have wanted to work on it. If your not going to like the shows theme song then why direct it.

Updated On: 1/3/09 at 12:32 PM

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:36pm

Sure they would... they were getting ....$$$$ WELL PAID $$$$...

And what was there other option?... to let the film producers hire ANOTHER writing team to write any new material?

They may not have liked the changes being made, but they both understand how the movie business works. Better they should cash the checks and try to make the best out of a bad situation.. rather than let some other yahoos totally ruin it.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:40pm

As for why Houston directed ANNIE... again: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

He said so as much in interviews when asked why he would direct ANNIE.

"Because they are paying me a sh*t load of money."

Updated On: 1/3/09 at 12:40 PM

[gypsy4]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:43pm

well annies score is one that should not be messed with.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 12:50pm

Don't tell me dear, tell Strouse and Charin...

Of course they might be a little busy cashing checks...so don't expect more than a blank stare or a "that's-nice-but-naive" pat on the back from them after you finish your art-is-pure manifesto.

Good Luck.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 2:39pm

Gypsy9, taking a song from one show that didn't do so well and putting in in a later show was a common practice back in the twenties and thirties, before the advent of the cast album. (On a couple of Ben Bagley's Rodgers and Hart Revisited albums he has a few medleys where the same song is sung with the lyrics of one show and then the lyrics for another show.)

But, Jule Styne did it a lot. And, it's not so hard to reason why he took a song from a TV special that only got done once and put it a show that will (hopefully) get done a lot. (He did the same thing with a song from "The Dangerous Christmas of Little Red Riding Hood" and put it into the revamped, touring version of "Sugar.")

But, he took a song from "Fade Out/Fade In" ("Call Me Savage") and used it in "Hallelulah, Baby!" ("Witches' Brew") and the shows both had cast albums and were only a year or so apart!

Though, both of those shows had the same lyricists (Comden and Green) and Bob Merrill did the lyrics for both "Dangerous Christmas of Little Red Riding Hood" and "Sugar". With the song from "Gypsy", it's another matter as "Ruggles" had a different lyricist. I think that Sondheim has commented on how he wouldn't have written "You'll Never Get Away From Me" if he had known that the other song existed.

And Jule Styne did that again, taking a song from "Look to the Lillies" ("I, Yes, Me", lyric by Sammy Cahn) and using it in "The Red Shoes" (I don't know what it was called in that show).

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 4:28pm

"Add to that, when I was growing up and listening to the DOLLY cast recording there were a handful of songs that didn't sound very 'Herman:' MOTHERHOOD, ELEGANCE... and PARADE PASSES BY"

Obviously, we can never know with complete certainty, but "Before the Parade Passes By" sounds so much like Jerry Herman to me and not the least bit like Strouse and Adams.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 4:55pm

(And "No One Is Alone" is "Candy Man" from WILLIE WONKA.)

[Smaxie]

Posted: 1/3/09 at 5:41pm

Following on SondheimBoy's post, Some Like It Hot, the London rewrite of Sugar, even strangely interpolates "Lament for 10 Men," with words and music by Bob Merrill from his ill-fated Breakfast at Tiffany's, in place of the Styne-Merill "November Song" from Sugar. It gets renamed "Dirty Old Men" in Some Like It Hot, but apart from a new lyric here and there, it is the same song as "Lament".