How much of HELLO, DOLLY did Herman write?- Page 2

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:40pm

"Wait, that was a cut from the thread? ok, at least that makes sense. I thought maybe you cut something out of a Suskin article or something and I was just hoping for a link. "

Yes, darling, someone wrote something on this thread and then deleted it.

The question is why.

[philcrosby]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:49pm

Herman also wrote (uncredited) songs for BEN FRANKLIN IN PARIS and HOLLYWOOD/UKRAINE.

Bock and Harnick wrote (also uncredited) songs for BAKER STREET.

[Smaxie]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 1:54pm

There has always been that rumor about Loesser writing "My White Knight". But after hearing that original version of "My White Knight" that Barbara Cook sings on her Carnegie Hall album, I'm not sure. There are all of these patter sections that were cut that make the song sound exactly like the rest of the score. And I'd love for a production of The Music Man to use the original version. I think it's terrific.

[BwayStar]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 2:23pm

Herman's songs for Hollywood/Ukraine were not uncredited.

[WOSQ]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 2:47pm

I didn't disappear, I went to lunch. Jeez.

The story is in one of the volumes that Suskin edited, "Opening Nights on Broadway". In these big books he summarizes reviews of musicals. There are two volumes and I forget what date is the cutting off point. I do remember that the second volume is far dishier than the first.

Suskin was an apprentice company manager (or some equivalent) in Merrick's office and one of his tasks was cutting the royalty checks. In the 60s in Merrick's office there were enough shows always running that cutting royalty checks could be a full-time job.

And I have never heard that Fiddler was anyone's but Bock and Harnick's. Not a whisper. After all, they were the go-to guys for show doctoring. They had some songs in the fast flop Her First Roman too.

There is a book "The Making of a Musical" about Fiddler written by Robbins' assistant that is quite interesting.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 2:57pm

In a sort of tangent from this topic, there's also the "Score by committee" theory of Man of La Mancha.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 6:41pm

This may be veering in a different direction, and I am not saying this to be mean, but the original musical arranger of 'Taboo' did an awful lot of work which was not credited. I'm not saying Boy George didn't do lots of good work, just that others contributed significantly to it becoming a theatre score.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 7:55pm

You're all forgetting that DOLLY!'s "Motherhood March" was only partially written by Herman. Was it Merrill who wrote the melody and the basic lyrics? Herman added the minor lyrics like "There's a tear-stained eagle passing" and "To form a a more perfect union".

Herman hated the song so much that he wrote into the movie sale that the song would be eliminated from the film. Too bad. It maight have been the only spark of life in that piece of sh1t.

Updated On: 9/13/06 at 07:55 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 8:00pm

Bock & Harnick also wrote songs for Her First Roman

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 8:37pm

I used to know someone that was deeply involved with TABOO's music on Broadway, and he alluded to (on more than one occasion), that much of TABOO's score was not George's. I never asked for details as I felt it wasn't my place, but he seemed to know first hand.

Regardless, I'd like to think of the score as entirely George's. Stupid, right?

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 9/13/06 at 10:27pm

According to Herman, "Elegance," a song that (as Dollypup wrote) he doesn't like, was co-written with Merrill. Herman says that Merrill wrote the first eight bars, giving Herman the basic idea and letting him take it from there. You can believe him or not. I'm inclined to believe him.

Herman receives no royalties for the song.

According to Herman, "Motherhood" was similarly a collaboration, with Merrill writing the opening part and Herman writing the counterpoint. He really doesn't like that song. I think both Herman and the Merrill estate get royalties on it.

And even though there seems to be no question that "Before the Parade Passes By" is completely by Herman, except perhaps for the title, Strouse and Adams get half the royalties.

There were reports in some books that Merrill completely wrote those two songs and that Strouse and Adams wrote "Parade," but at least more recent editions of Suskin's Show Tunes have changed that. It has been confusing, though, because ASCAP lists "Parade" as being by Adams, Herman, and Strouse. That's because of the royalty arrangements.

As for the title song, Herman claimed he had never heard "Sunflower." That may well be true, but apparently the first couple of phrases of the two songs are identical.

As for Loesser, there have been several reports that he wrote "A New Town Is a Blue Town" and "There Once Was a Man" in The Pajama Game. John Raitt said this in an interview, and I believe it.

OTOH, I believe he didn't write "My White Knight." Babara Cook was there and I'm inclined to believe her.

Re Fiddler: I find it very hard to believe that the whole score isn't by Bock and Harnick. They worked on it a long time and demos exist of them playing most of the score. A great deal has been written about the creation of the show. These things don't stay secret. I think that if they hadn't written all of the score, it would be known.

[WalkOn]

Posted: 9/14/06 at 5:19pm

Wow.. thanks for the great info... guess the idea behind my question wasn't as "doubtful" as one was so quick to suggest.

Has anyone ever heard SUNFLOWER.. does it sound like HELLO, DOLLY?

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 9/14/06 at 5:52pm

Well, we all know Mr Wildhorn composes his own stuff. So there

Updated On: 9/14/06 at 05:52 PM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 9/14/06 at 10:21pm

Yes, I dug up the music for "SUNFLOWER" once and I believe there was one note that was different when comparing their chorus ("Hel-lo Dol-ly, Well, Hel-lo Dol-ly") ("Sun-Flow-er, She's my Sun-Flow-er")

I'm almost positive that somebody closely linked with the Frank Loesser estate (maybe Jo Sullivan) has admitted that Loesser contributed to the MUSIC MAN score, though if I'm remembering correctly, his contribution was "Til There was You" not "My White Night"

[MichaelCassara]

Posted: 9/15/06 at 8:28am

Wait, back up, please... Bock and Harnick didn't write "half the score" of FIDDLER? That's libelous, if you ask me, not to mention inaccurate. Would "VeuveClicquot" care to offer some facts? Or even a more direct accusation (like, name one song?)


Regarding DOLLY, don't forget that dance arranger Peter Howard contributed a great deal to the overall sound of the score and is credited with the ragtime figures at the beginning of "I Put My Hand In", as well as the leitmotif that appears in "Dancing". At least the latter is well-documented in the Gower Champion biography that came out last year. If memory serves, it also sheds a good deal of light on the exact nature of the Strouse/Adams/Merrill contributions.

But, hey, it's all about an end result...

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 9/15/06 at 3:54pm

Not to mention "The Waiters' Gallop." All Peter Howard.

But that, as you suggest, is pretty standard in Broadway musicals. Dance music arrangers are really the unsung heroes of many musicals. "Arranging" is often a pretty inadequate description of what they've done.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/15/06 at 3:56pm

I have it on very good authority that Jerry Herman wrote every third note in "Hello, Dolly!"

[devonian.t]

Posted: 9/16/06 at 10:27am

Harmonic thirds?

[sparrman]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 11:16am

Thought I would resurrect this fascinating thread.

There are plenty of examples of "Sunflower" on iTunes; even from the 30 second clips you can hear that the first 8 notes are identical (harmonically as well) to "-lo, Dolly, well hello, Dolly". But after that, the songs are different. I've heard Herman lost a plagiarism suit on this one, though.

And I've always thought replacing "My White Knight" with the more mundane "Being in Love" in the Music Man movie was a sign that Loesser wrote the "my white knight" part while Willson wrote the "all I want is a plain man" middle part.
Updated On: 12/31/08 at 11:16 AM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 11:29am

“HOWEVER, if I were Herman, I'd be a bit ashamed. Because at least two songs of that score (and perhaps three) don't belong to him. And he continues to take all the royalties for them”.

No, he doesn’t take all of the royalties as you posted above.

Remember, you just posted this:

“Steve Suskin worked for Merrick in the 60s and would cut Dolly royalty checks to Herman and smaller ones to Merrill and smaller ones yet to Adams/Strouse.”

[Kad]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 11:57am

Sparrman, this is definitely a thread that deserves a revival! Threads that are actually informative such as this are extremely welcome.

Exactly how common is this type of ghost writing/contribution in Broadway musicals? Other than The Producers (which Mel Brooks, although receiving credit, somewhat concedes), are there more modern examples?

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:02pm

I'm surprised no one has even mentioned Jonathan Larson and RENT.

[sparrman]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:03pm

Well, someone just DID...

[sparrman]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:05pm

This isn't a secret or really ghostwriting at all, but when West Side Story opened both Sondheim and Bernstein were credited as lyricists. Bernstein later had his credit removed. Anyone know which lyrics he actually wrote?
Updated On: 12/31/08 at 12:05 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:51pm

I find it interesting that the only time people get really bitchy and outraged over song similarities is when Andrew Lloyd Webber is mentioned, and then it is always referred to as "stealing". With any other composers, everyone treats them more as curiosities.