How much of HELLO, DOLLY did Herman write?- Page 3

[gypsy4]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:55pm

well there were rumors that meredith wilson didn't write "my white knight".
Updated On: 12/31/08 at 12:55 PM

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 12:57pm

From what I can remember it seems Bernstein originally wrote "some" lyrics that Sondheim later "re-wrote."

Any remaining Bernstein contributions are probably a word and/or phrase or two.

At the time of negotiating how the lyric $$$$ would be split.. Bernstein offered Sondheim full credit and full payment. But Sondheim - in youthful magnanimity - turned down the offer and allowed for the 50/50 split.

A decision he has admitted to regretting because he pretty much handed over a HUGH chunk of change.

...Ah... the follies of youth...

[bk]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 1:03pm

My Lord - people "hear" this, "hear" that and it's printed here as some sort of fact. Frank Loesser wrote not one note of The Music Man - had he, he would receive contractual royalties, and I've seen the contracts and he doesn't. That's how it works. I recorded the revival of Dolly and Mr. Herman's royalties, along with those of the other contributors are clearly spelled out in the grand rights contract. Mr. Willson's book But He Doesn't Know The Territory was very candid about all his problems birthing the show, and he was the kind of person who would have said if Loesser had written something. Being In Love, which I consider a better song than My White Knight, was written specifically so the film version of The Music Man could have an Oscar-eligible song.

[marknyc]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 1:14pm

Just found this thread and was surprised that no one mentioned the most embarrassing self-steal ever: "Avenue A" from "Mrs. Santa Claus" and "Mame." They're virtually the same song.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 1:21pm

Not sure if this is actually part of the topic, but this reminds me of an article that appeared in the Sunday New York Times after "Miss Saigon" opened that compared the major songs from "Miss Saigon" and the famous songs that they sound remarkably like, such as the way "Why, God" sounds remarkably like an over-heated version of Rodgers and Hart's "There's A Small Hotel" from "On Your Toes".

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 1:25pm

The borrowing of one's own music from one show to another is not confined to theatre composers, although it might be noted that Jule Styne borrowed the tune "You'll Never Get Away From Me" from another show he wrote called the RUGGLES OF RED GAP.

World famous Baroque composers Bach and Handel borrowed from their past compositions when it suited them. For example, the most famous chorus from a choral work ever written, the "Hallelujah Chorus", was written by George Frideric Handel for his oratorio MESSIAH in 1742. In 1749 Handel composed the FOUNDLING HOSPITAL ANTHEM which he ended with this very same "Hallelujah Chorus".

On another note, I agree with Smaxie about including the extended version of "My White Knight" in any future productions of THE MUSIC MAN. IT does sound more like Meredith Willson than Frank Loesser.

[blaxx]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 1:46pm

Well, we all know Mr Wildhorn composes his own stuff. So there

Love, who else could write such things, really? (and take credit for it!)

I did ask about ReNt once:

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.cfm?boardid=1&boardname=bway&thread=870581#1479797

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 2:04pm

I don't get why RENT is being mentioned in this thread. It's not a ghostwriter if the person is credited in the program for original concept and additional lyrics. Even the dramaturg who tried(?) to sue is given credit.

[sparrman]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 2:24pm

BK, it's ridiculous to say Loesser would DEFINITELY be receiving royalties if he had written all or part of My White Knight. It could easily have been a buyout, a big payment up front, after which Willson or the producers owned the song. And as it's a theoretically embarrassing situation, it would be understandable for Willson to not mention it.

Plus the lengthy middle section of the songs is identical, which calls into question Being in Love's eligibility for an "original song" Oscar.

Again, I have no idea if the rumors are true, but your reasons aren't at all convincing.

And this thread is for both fact AND conjecture. Let it continue!


Updated On: 12/31/08 at 02:24 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 2:43pm

Do not contradict the bk.

[bk]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 3:13pm

Exactly. I know it's more fun for the "rumors" to be more convincing than the truth. Sorry, My White Knight is all Willson. It is very consistent with his writing style. And Loesser would have received royalties - he would not have been "bought out." I've been through all the cut songs from The Music Man - and the style of each and every one of them is Willson. But then, in this very thread someone states that they "heard" that Loesser wrote Till There Was You. It's hogwash.

[commasplice]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 3:25pm

"But then, in this very thread someone states that they "heard" that Loesser wrote Till There Was You. It's hogwash."

Of course it is. Everyone knows that the Beatles wrote that song.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 4:20pm

Frank Loesser wrote not one note of The Music Man - had he, he would receive contractual royalties, and I've seen the contracts and he doesn't. That's how it works. I recorded the revival of Dolly and Mr. Herman's royalties, along with those of the other contributors are clearly spelled out in the grand rights contract.

That's not necessarily true. I receive a percentage of the royalties for a relatively obscure show I worked on, and my name is not in the "grand rights contract."

I have a side letter with the composer and lyricist and I get a check from their agent's office. My percentage is deducted after their agent's percentage.

People can make all sorts of deals. They can, and they do.

[marknyc]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 4:31pm

"Why, God" sounds remarkably like "There's A Small Hotel"

I've always heard about this - thanks for finally identifying which song it is.

They do contain some similar notes, but not as much of a direct lift as I was led to believe.

[bk]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 4:55pm

"People can make all sorts of deals. They can, and they do."

Well, you are not Mr. Loesser, and the show you worked on was not a major show, and I'm afraid that this "discussion" is pointless because so few are interested in reality. I understand that people make all sorts of agreements in all sorts of ways, but it didn't happen on The Music Man, and it doesn't happen on most Broadway shows. Mr. Herman is in the Ben Franklin contract. Mr. Merrill and Strouse and Adams are in the Hello, Dolly contract. Mr. Loesser had his own publishing company, a huge one, and he didn't need to make side deals with agents, and you know that as well as I.

[sparrman]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 4:59pm

"Well, you are not Mr. Loesser..."

Whereas you, bk, obviously are.

I value your opinion, it seems like a learned one, but I know enough to know that only someone who was THERE in the middle of it could be as sure of what went on as you pretend to be.

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 8:35pm

Just to correct someone's inaccurate statement from this thread's original run:

Jerry Herman's contributions to "Ben Franklin in Paris" are absolutely CREDITED.

[bk]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 9:29pm

No, I am not Mr. Loesser, but I've spoken with MRS. Loesser, and her daughter many times. Believe what you will.

[gypsy4]

Posted: 12/31/08 at 9:37pm

well maybe Mrs. Loesser wasn't aware. BK were you part of the original production of The Music Man? because you seem to know alot about the contract deals that were made.
Updated On: 12/31/08 at 09:37 PM

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 3:25am

I think maybe, you don't know who bk is... and that's fine... but you should step off. I've always heard the "My White Knight" rumor... and quite fancied it... so much so I don't want to believe bk... but I'm not going to insult him... and I guarantee he is far more informed than most.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 4:12am

Nobody has yet mentioned the curious case of "Make Em Laugh" and "Be A Clown." Cole Porter wrote "Be A Clown" for the MGM musical "The Pirate." Arthur Freed was producing "Singin' In The Rain" (the movie, I'll get to the stage version in a minute...) and had 24 hours to come up with a song for Donald O'Connor. He and Herb Nacio Brown produced "Make Em Laugh" which was quickly scored and rushed into the recording studio. Cole Porter happened to be on the MGM lot that day and dropped in to the recording session and nearly fell out of his wheelchair when he heard the song which is SO obviously his melody (or maybe nearly fell off his canes, not sure which.)

At the end, Freed turned to Porter and said "Whadda ya think?"

Long pause, Porter rattles the coins in his pocket and smiles weakly, remember the alleged plagiarist is his boss.

Cut to: the 1980s. They decide to do a stage version in London at the Palladium with Tommy Steel. Roy Castle, an AMAZING dancer/comedian/juggler plays Cozmo. What does he sing?

"Be A Clown."

WTF is that all about?

THEN they do the show at The Uris (Gershwin) and what song do they use?

"Make Em Laugh."

I asked Peter Slutzker what this was all about, and he had no idea.

Suggestions?

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 9:50am

"Jerry Herman's contributions to "Ben Franklin in Paris" are absolutely CREDITED."

But they weren't credited when the show was new.

Michael Bennett wrote:

"I'm almost positive that somebody closely linked with the Frank Loesser estate (maybe Jo Sullivan) has admitted that Loesser contributed to the MUSIC MAN score, though if I'm remembering correctly, his contribution was 'Til There was You' not 'My White Night.' "

I love you, Michael, but you're wrong about this. Meredith Willson wrote "Till There Was You." It was a trunk song. It was first heard with a slightly different lyric, with the title "Till I Met You," on The Big Show, a 90-minute radio show that Tallulah Bankhead hosted on NBC on Sunday evenings. The show was on the air between 1950 and 1952. Willson was the program's musical director.

And again I'll say that if Barbara Cook says (and she has) that Willson wrote "My White Knight," I'm inclined to believe her.

Sondheim says that no more than a a few words here and there of Bernstein's original lyrics remain in West Side Story. I'm inclined to believe him.


Updated On: 1/2/09 at 09:50 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 2:18pm

Bernstein's original lyric to "One Hand, One Heart" was simply that: the word "one" held where Sondheim added the "make of our." Bernstein himself admitted it was ponderous and dirge-like until Sondheim improved it.

Bernstein wrote some other scattered lyrics as he was writing the initial music, probably phrases that helped him come up with melodies, like "when you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way" or tonight, tonight," but no entire songs.

He was certainly enough of a wordsmith to have a certain facility at lyric writing, he just didn't have the patience to do so for a whole score when he knew his greater talent was with music. He viewed lyric writing more like a parlor game, and he wrote the lyrics for "I Am Easily Assimilated" with his wife Felicia and wrote some (all?) of the lyrics to "I Can Cook Too."

[sparrman]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 7:37pm

Sondheim has spoken at length (and often negatively) about his own contributions to WSS; I've wondered if one could maybe get a clue about Bernstein's lyric contributions by eliminating the lyrics Sondheim has "claimed" and seeing what's left.

As a side note, it must be said that Bernstein's lyrics for Trouble in Tahiti are pretty darned good.
Updated On: 1/1/09 at 07:37 PM

[raker]

Posted: 1/1/09 at 8:47pm

Strouse tells the story in his recent memoir. He and Adams were hired to doctor the show, and they wrote songs that were never used. Strouse said unambiguously that it was Jerry Herman who wrote the music for Hello Dolly and not Strouse and Adams.