Is it time for a mass exodus from Broadway World?- Page 3

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:23pm

Eh I think many theater-goers are probably racist. If you look at the theater audience what do you see mostly? Rich white people. Not saying they're all Dave28282's but you can't expect a passion/hobby/art form that costs so much money and is skewed so heavily towards rich white people to be that racially progressive. You just can't.

I'm neither rich nor white but whether it was Angels in America or Once on This Island the audiences I've been to have always been well-heeled white people.

[dearalanaaaa]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:27pm

So we can't call a racist a racist but we may call a homophobe a homophobe? How does that make sense? And I'm still salty some of the best and most engaging discussions and debates on this board I've had were deleted because you wanted to censor us in favor of Javier M*ñoz. Or in favor of a teenage stalker fan. I'm technically still a teen, and I would never behave like that. But no censor that so her feelings aren't hurt UwU.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:29pm

My favourite artists in the world are black and asian.

I'm definitely not racist. If anything I'm a bit more intelligent than some here, because I completely understand that agent who rises above separation and what actual equality means and what the right path for the future is. And it is not exclusion behaviour, demanding uneven levels and 1 way streets.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:29 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:42pm

Dave. You are VERY r*cist. Real life people of color are telling you that what you're saying is racist. Listen, hun. Listen and reflect.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:43pm

Dave, the thing is that I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that true equality in the casting world is what we should strive towards. But the simple fact is that theatre is not at a point where we can just blindly assert that POC have it as easy getting roles as white actors do. There are many situations where a casting director can just slyly insist that their entire cast of white folks just so happened to be the best actors for the job when in reality, white actors ended up being the majority of people they bothered seeing for the role. Not to mention that more and more POC and other marginalized groups are expressing a desire to see themselves represented onstage, and more and more marginalized people are wanting to feel confident enough that they'll have an equal shot at achieving their dreams. The whole "equality onstage" discussion is centered on the fact that the industry just isn't at a place where we can say with earnest that everyone has an equal shot, because it's not true. We want it to get there, and while we're making progress, it's just not where it needs to be yet.

Frankly, at the end of the day, you insinuating that I and anyone else who voices this opinion are the "real racists" for having this point of view in the first place is no different or better than you being called racist for expressing your views, and you saying you're "more intelligent" than others on this board is in and of itself a sort of attack and "shutting down" of discussion, because it shows that you consider yourself above it all and not willing to see people with opposing opinions as valid speakers in a discussion. I don't agree that you or anyone else should be kicked off of this board, but the nastiness tends to be a two-way street, and I don't think you realize that.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:46pm

I have a hunch that some people on here secretly definitely realize there is this forced pressure for this unfair behaviour on casting agencies but it is just fine with them because they want to get even for things from the past. But it is oh so harmful. Equality starts where rising above this (like the agent) begins. The statistics are already level, so what's the next step? Staying in the victim role and maintain separation or rising above it? 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:46 PM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:50pm

BTW, this is an image/metaphor I've always found helpful in explaining why strides need to be taken to give more opportunities to marginalized people. Dave, you seem to be arguing for "equality" - the image on the left, but look how that turns out. 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:50 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:52pm

Elfuhbuh, about the casting, we already discussed that with true equal casting any scenario is possible and that if 10 actors audition for a role, of which 9 white and 1 black there is a 90% chance that the role does  not go to a black person, based purely on neutral statistics. So what does truly "equal" mean for some people? Matching society? Matching the chances of roles percentage wise? Demanding more, to an uneven level, to get "even". What is the goal?

And yes, the discussion is heated both ways.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:52 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:52pm

OMG.
seriously? I mean, are you f*cking kidding me right now?

"Get even for things from the past"??

I mean.... Are you KIDDING ME? You are way out of your league here, hun. This kind of behavior should get you banned. This is just straight up white supremacy.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:55pm

Georgeand dot, can you please refrain from this attacking behaviour and get to the point?

Can you explain the burning desire for uneven level then? The core of this discussion is exclusion behaviour. People thinking they have earned the right to unfair behaviour. This agent is trying to rise above that. If we want a level playing field, we should also accept the fact that a white cast is a possibility. If 10 actors audition for a role, of which one black, there is a 90% chance the role does not go the black actor, based purely on neutral statistics. The number of contracts in musical theatre is already around 12% for black people. That is level to society, even higher in commercials. Which is extremely high, given the chance theory, because statistically, if there would be a show with a cast of 8, ending up with 2 black actors (such as Grease live, JCS, every lawyer, judge, love interest in tv and film etc), and let's say 60 people audition, of which 10 black and 50 white, it means that 20% of all auditioning black actors was hired versus 8% of all auditioning white actors.

This happens all the time, so you tell me, are black people that ridiculously more talented? Are they so much more superior? Or might there be a bit forced pressure for this unfair behaviour on casting agencies and is it just fine with you because you want to get even?

Well, this is not even. ""Even" would be matching society. Which would mean 1 black actor in a project of 10, roughly. That is exceeded by far. Level is already really special, looking at neutral chance on a role.

To me it is all about talent, my favourite artists of all time are black and asian. So talent is where the focus should lie, according to this agent, me, and other people on this board. With this out of balance facts, being supported by seeing actual inferior quality often, the forced casting breakdowns etc, it shows that it is currently a problem and a 1 way street that prevents equality. 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:55 PM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:58pm

Dave, I would be genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on the image I posted above. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:59pm

JBroadway said: "BTW, this is an image/metaphor I've always found helpful in explaining why strides need to be taken to give more opportunities to marginalized people. Dave, you seem to bearguing for "equality" - the image on the left, but look how that turns out.

"

That's an interesting theory, but how would that translate to casting in reality in your opinion?

Because I think that "to favour" certain people based on race, or getting a role or not getting a role based on color is bad per definition, also when the intentions are good.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:59 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:07pm

DAVE. Your comments are personal attacks on me. On who I am. I will NOT have a conversation with you. You are a R*CIST. Understand that. You are r*cist. There's no conversation here and there is no reason for you to be on these boards. You have 0 empathy or understanding of people who aren't like you. Your arguments are entirely robotic and lacking in any sort of emotional understanding. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F*CK ABOUT STATISTICS. You hate black people. You do. They make you uncomfortable to see onstage. Why don't you just admit that. When you see a black person onstage, you think of how a white actor was robbed of that part. You think there are too many black people. These are your arguments. They sound a lot less flattering when I say them without all of your fancy wordplay. You should be ashamed of your statements on these boards.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:09pm

Dave28282 said: "JBroadway said: "BTW, this is an image/metaphor I've always found helpful in explaining why strides need to be taken to give more opportunities to marginalized people. Dave, you seem to bearguing for "equality" - the image on the left, but look how that turns out.

"

That's an interesting theory, but how would that translate to casting in reality in your opinion?"

 

The idea is that white actors are the tallest guy - they have the privilege of having more roles written for them, and being generally viewed as the "default" by society (i.e, the fence was built for their height, and they don't need a box to stand on). Let's say the shortest person is representative of Asian actors, who are frequently left out of the conversation. The idea is that directors, producers, playwrights, casting people should make an effort to see more POC for roles. And if a white actor and, say, an Asian actor are equally good for a role (i.e they both deserve to watch the baseball game), the director could cast the Asian actor just because they are a Asian. Technically, this isn't FAIR (just like the short person getting 2 boxes while the tall person gets 1 isn't exactly FAIR), but it's necessary to offset the inherent unfairness in our society (i.e the fence being too tall). Yes, the shortest person has more boxes, but that's because they fence wasn't build for their height, so they can't watch the game without both of them. Thus, directors can't just be blindly equal, because not everyone is in equal standing as it is. 

 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 09:09 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:10pm

double

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 09:10 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:10pm

Georgeanddot, don't be a poser and get over yourself.

All I say is that poc are equal and that we must fight for that and that I don't like separation behaviour.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 09:10 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:15pm

No that's not what you're REALLY saying but ok.....

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:16pm

Well, it is.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:18pm

Hm.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:27pm

Jbroadway, I see what you mean but I don't think that's fair as like I said, "to favour" certain people based on race, or getting a role or not getting a role based on color is bad per definition, also when the intentions are good.

At the moment, statistics show that the number of contracts matches society in musical theatre. Which is extremely high, given the fact of chance like I described, so that's great and something to be grateful for. 

A very correct way would be a rule for writers, where they must write matching percentages of races that matches society. That would mean complete fairness. But at the moment that would mean less roles for black actors, because most projects have more than 12%, especially in commercials, film and tv at the moment. So that would be a shame, because black people are clearly so ridiculously more talented that that naturally translated to the higher percentage right now, that it would be a shame to have a fair level.

Of course that last past was not serious, but we should acknowledge what is fair and what is not, what is a 1 way street in equality and what is not, what prevents equality and what does not.

In the end it should be only about talent, which is exactly what the agent suggested, but that is made very difficult this way.

We should really ask ourselves, what is the goal and how would we measure it?

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 09:27 PM

[Elegance101]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:40pm

Dave28282 said: "My favourite artists in the world are black and asian.

I'm definitely not racist. If anything I'ma bit more intelligent than some here, because I completely understand that agent who rises above separation and what actual equality means and what the right path for the future is. And it is not exclusion behaviour, demanding uneven levels and 1 way streets."

This would be so funny to read if it wasn't so disturbing. You REALLY believe this. Oh my god...

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:43pm

The only thing this thread has shown me is that somehow Dave28282 still hasn’t been banned.

Anyway, this board just isn’t as fun and informative as it was in the past. I used to stay up late on Openkng Nights to read all the comments in the reviews thread, and whenever a new show started, I would eagerly await reviews in the previews thread. And then Pal Joey would post a gorgeous thread full of memories and informative encounters with legends - the West Side Story thread comes to mind. Honestly, beside Whizzer’s impeccable reviews, this board is kinda defunct.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:48pm

Read Dave's posts in a robot voice and throw in an occasional beep-boop. It's hysterical.

[Elegance101]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 9:57pm

GeorgeandDot said: "Read Dave's posts in a robot voice and throw in an occasional beep-boop. It's hysterical."

I traditionally read it as a blonde sorority girl who "doesn't see color" but I'll give your idea a try!

[ChildofEarth]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 10:04pm

To get this thread back to the original topic - this kind of stuff is exactly why I’m tired of not only this board, but of society in general.

I go to theater so I don’t have to think about what is going on - that our president is a rapist and a criminal. That politicians want to take my rights away. For three hours, i could focus on artistry and beauty on stage. .

And for a while, I could get that here as well. I could argue about whether or not Idina was acting professionally in If/Then or who deserved the Tony more from the Hamilton men, or where the best seats in the house are really located.

But there’s a stench overtaking this board just like the one that’s overtaking this country. White supremacy will ruin everything we love.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 10:04 PM