Is it time for a mass exodus from Broadway World?- Page 2

[Anakela]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 6:21pm

BWWMatt said: "
I get that this seems like we are splitting hairs here on this, but I truly believe that if you call someone a racist (for example), that ends the discussion whether you want it to or not, because it makes someone automatically defensive.

However, if you say that you believe that what the other person thinks is racist (and then hopefully explain why), that leaves the other person the opportunity to step back and disassociate with what was said, so that the dialogue can continue in a hopefully positive manner."
"

No. Hard no. Pass. 

Call a racist a racist. If anything we should be doing more of calling racists racist.

I'm not going to walk past someone wearing a sheet over their head and burning a cross on a lawn and engage them in the difference between being a racist and having racist beliefs. That's a racist. 

A white woman at Yale who has not once, but twice, called the police on black Yale students, yet manages to never call the police on white Yale students, is a racist. Call her a racist. 

I've probably been on BWW longer than a handful of posters here have been alive, but if this is really the hill the mods are choosing to die on...nope.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 6:26pm

THIS THREAD IS RACIST!!!

 

Seriously though, get rid of the friggin' pop-up ads. I know you need money to run your site, but come on.

[BWWMatt]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 6:46pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Seriously though, get rid of the friggin' pop-up ads. I know you need money to run your site, but come on."

Could you send me a screenshot of what pop-ups you are seeing? And maybe the device/browser you are seeing them on. There should not be any pop-ups of any kind showing up. 

matt [at] broadwayworld dot com

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 6:50pm

In the spirit of having frank discussions and open dialogue, maybe instead of having another thread talking about diversity on Broadway and theatre in general that ends up being another dumpster fire, maybe we can have a frank discussion on the lack of diversity on the BWW moderating staff because the responses on this subject for many people, though made with good intentions and are thorough, are short of satisfactory, tone deaf, and condescending.

It's not a matter of people simply being unable to handle a frank discussion about race or can't handle a heated debate. I think many people would argue they have had franker discussions in person and have had to deal with the fall out of living through those real arguments. People have been able to discuss and even argue about casting. What people are having issues with is the censorship of one side who feel as if they are just calling people out on what they are REALLY saying and revealing about themselves and yet all the blatantly racist material is just being left up.

I feel like if you want to allow all the blatant racism to run rampant on this board then you should allow people to respond to it the way they truly feel. That's an open discussion. For POC, there's no real difference if a personal attack is against somebody using someone's user name or if they just hide behind a technicality of the rule by mentioning or including those posters in their insults and inflammatory language but don't mention them by name but rather just attack whole groups of people in which those posters belong. The effect is NOT different.

Some are observing that the enforcement of the rules is resulting in one side getting censored while another side is getting away with personally attacking people by are smart enough by not using a username in those attacks. You need to realize these aren't hypothetical groups of people but real groups in which people identify with and belong. In civil rights litigation and in discrimination cases, luckily the courts have been smart enough to figure out that discrimination and racist acts don't have to be that explicit but doing it on the sly is just as harmful and discriminatory.

For many people who have made it their career to combat or simply have life experience being confronted with racism (for me it's with litigation and policy work and learning to identify pretext for racism and discrimination) in all of its facets, the responses by the staff just shows there may be a lack of meaningful interaction with people with different lived experiences when it comes to race.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 06:50 PM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:00pm

A+, Scotty.

[DAME]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:05pm

The exodus already happened a while ago. As someone said in one of the Dolly threads; it’s the same 5 queens posting over and over again.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:17pm

And what would you do on a new forum? Hyperventilate when someone has a different opinion than yours and then calling him/her names without personal attacks being corrected by a moderator?

Be my guest. Bye.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:22pm

Look, the racism, whether it be blatant or casual or subconscious, is ridiculous on this board. It's the truth. The whole "knock off the PC talk" is becoming a daily event here. Being PC means nothing more than having respect for those who are different than you and being respectful of their thoughts and wishes. This isn't really racist behavior, but rather just nasty and unempathetic and disrespectful behavior. The racism is more casual. No one's throwing around slurs, but you do have people saying some really racist things here. Now you've decided that calling out someone's racist behavior is a personal attack? Seriously? I love theatre and I love to discuss the shows and do some dreamcasting, but this just ruins it for me. This isn't a place that feels welcoming for many of us. I think I'm done with these boards. It's just a bunch of kids in the midwest and a bunch of old white men complaining that there's too many black people on Broadway.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:25pm

I don’t think so. The thing I appreciate about this board at least is that the moderators are willing to explain why posts are getting edited/taken down, and engage in discussion with members over how and why these rules are implemented, which I can’t really say for plenty of websites. There are tons of forums where mods just go power hungry by censoring/shutting threads down without explanation or a willing ear to hear the members’ point of view. I think a healthy discussion is a good asset, even if I or others don’t always agree with how certain rules are enforced.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:28pm

At least ban Dave2828 from the board....

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:28pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "What people are having issues with is the seemingly censorship of one side who feel as if they are just calling people out on what they are REALLY saying and revealing about themselves and yet all the blatantly racist material is just being left up.
 

For POC, there's no real difference if a personal attack is against somebody using someone's user name or if they just hide behind a technicality of the rule by mentioning or including those posters in their insults and inflammatory language but don't mention them by name but rather just attack whole groups of people in which those posters belong. The effect is NOT different.."

You are completely oblivious about reality. It's not one side. The moderators do not pick sides in discussions. Your posts get deleted if you misbehave, not if you have certain opinions in a discussion about a certain subject.

Discussion wise, I think for example, that it is you who actually attacks POC by demanding that they forever should be treated differently based on their color, a harmful process that another poster on this board very well explained. A process that prevents equality. Which is insulting and belittling, not everyone respects being pushed into the victim role. Should we take that as personal attacks too? No, because there is a difference between standpoint and behaviour in a discussion. If you can't tell these 2 apart then you actually have no business being on any forum.

 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 07:28 PM

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:31pm

Maybe one idea that would be good is if the mods must edit or take down a post entirely, they could shoot the offending member a PM to explain what about the message was wrong. It might help clear things up a bit in regards to whether the spirit behind the entire post was an attack, or if it was a specific comment within the post itself that was out of line. Saying vaguely that a post was seen as an “attack” without an explanation as to how or why isn’t always a good way to let people know how we’re violating the rules.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 07:31 PM

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:40pm

Don't go Erik, you're one of the good guys.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:42pm

GeorgeandDot said: "At least ban Dave2828 from the board...."

This is exactly the kind of behaviour why mods are necessary.

 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:46pm

Anakela said: "BWWMatt said: "
I get that this seems like we are splitting hairs here on this, but I truly believe that if you call someone a racist (for example), that ends the discussion whether you want it to or not, because it makes someone automatically defensive.

However, if you say that you believe that what the other person thinks is racist (and then hopefully explain why), that leaves the other person the opportunity to step back and disassociate with what was said, so that the dialogue can continue in a hopefully positive manner."
"

No. Hard no. Pass.

Call a racist a racist. If anything we should be doing more of calling racists racist.

I'm not going to walk past someone wearing a sheet over their head and burning a cross on a lawn and engage them in the difference between being a racist and having racist beliefs. That's a racist.

A white woman at Yale who has not once, but twice, called the police on black Yale students, yet manages to never call the police on white Yale students,is a racist. Call her a racist.

I've probably been on BWW longer than a handful of posters here have been alive, but if this is really the hill the mods are choosing to die on...nope."

GeorgeandDot said:

Look, the racism, whether it be blatant or casual or subconscious, is ridiculous on this board. It's the truth. The whole "knock off the PC talk" is becoming a daily event here. Being PC means nothing more than having respect for those who are different than you and being respectful of their thoughts and wishes. This isn't really racist behavior, but rather just nasty and unempathetic and disrespectful behavior. The racism is more casual. No one's throwing around slurs, but you do have people saying some really racist things here. Now you've decided that calling out someone's racist behavior is a personal attack? Seriously? I love theatre and I love to discuss the shows and do some dreamcasting, but this just ruins it for me. This isn't a place that feels welcoming for many of us. I think I'm done with these boards. It's just a bunch of kids in the midwest and a bunch of old white men complaining that there's too many black people on Broadway.

Both of these posts are worth highlighting.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:47pm

Dave, to be frank, you just said further up there that someone had no business being on any forum because they said something you disagreed with, which is essentially the same thing.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:51pm

That's not what I said, read again.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:54pm

Scotty, Anakela is right. Just saying racist stops any discussion. For example, I actually think you are a subconscious racist, and I explained why in my previous posts, without you actually calling it. Now, should I just call you that in every post without explaining why? Or should I explain it, like I did, so you can explain yourself and react on that?

Thank you.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 07:54 PM

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:55pm

"Discussion wise, I think for example, that it is you who actually attacks POC by demanding that they forever should be treated differently based on their color, a harmful process that another poster on this board very well explained. Which is insulting and belittling, not everyone respects being pushed into the victim role. Which prevents equality. Should we take that as personal attacks too? No, because there is a difference between standpoint and behaviour in a discussion. If you can't tell these 2 apart then you actually have no business being on any forum."

Claiming that someone has no business being on any forum because they don't align themselves exactly with YOUR view of a lively discussion is exactly what you said, actually.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 7:57pm

Dave28282 said: "Scotty, Anakela is right. Just saying racist stops any discussion. For example, I actually think you are a racist, and I explained why in my previous posts. Now, should I just call you that in every post without explaining why? Or should I explain it, like I did, so you can explain yourself and react on that?

Thank you."

I've just been called a "racist". From the last explanation, I gather that is reportable, right?

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:02pm

Elfuhbuh, what exactly do you not understand? I just said there's a difference between standpoint and behaviour in a discussion. If you can't tell these 2 apart then you actually have no business being on any forum. Being rude or calling names is why I say he has no business being on any forum. If he can't keep the latter out of the first. That's something very different from: Claiming that someone has no business being on any forum because they don't align themselves exactly with MY VIEW about the subject matter.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:02 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:04pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "I've just been called a "racist". From the last explanation, I gather thatis reportable, right?"

Is your previous post reportable where you make a plea for calling people racist whenever we can?

I have explained very well in 2 posts why I think your standpoint is wrong, without you calling that word. Because in my opinion it's always better to explain your opinion than just calling someone a name. I'm just using the word now in a recap to make a point about this, as this discussion is about it.

 

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:04 PM

[ChildofEarth]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:16pm

So now there have been two threads where someone has not only made people on this board uncomfortable but who has gone out of their way to bring it up because the old thread was locked.

Racism is racism is racism. And “hearing them out so you know where they stand” isn’t the answer. When you give even one a platform, it allows others to see they are not alone.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:16pm

Calling a racist a racist isn't a personal attack, nor is it a discussion ender. Just like when you call water wet, and a conversation can continue. Racists are racists. And perpetuating racist ideas is still, wait for it...racist.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 5/10/18 at 8:20pm

Ok fine, we have 2 camps calling each other racist. That's not really interesting. Arguments are.

Why separate on race? Why a 1 way street in treatment? Why the desire for an uneven level? Those are interesting discussion points.

Updated On: 5/10/18 at 08:20 PM