Kander and Ebb's Influence on the Broadway Theatre.- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 3:55pm

Thank you, PJ. As usual, I'm overcome with early-onset Alzheimer's. I know Bobby Darin had the big hit with "Mack the Knife". I own about 6 Darin CDs for every Sinatra CD in my collection.

But when the songwriter auditions the "Take Off With Us" number for Gideon, that performance is a pure parody of Fred Ebb singing. And Kander quietly playing the piano.

I can't think of a single K&E song that isn't superior to "Take Off With Us". K&E should have sued for libel.

I think a lot of the characters are amalgams of different B'way types, not specific people. Like that director could be Hal Prince, but couldn't it also be Gower Champion?

Well, *I* thought it was Prince and I hadn't yet met him at the time; to me, at least, he was the last American to wear an ascot. And we know from several sources that it was Prince whom Fosse feared would take CHICAGO while Fosse was in the hospital.

That said, I acknowledge your point that Fosse never claimed the film was a documentary. The problem is that until the end, he follows real-life professional events pretty closely; it's hard not to see real people as the targets of his mockery.



Updated On: 4/29/13 at 03:55 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:03pm

Any musical show is much more than just its score, and Kander and Ebb only did music and lyrics. Ebb contributed to the books for only two of his shows, and the successful one (Chicago) was re-written almost completely by Fosse and his pals (like Herb Gardner), but without official credit.

Their songs are good - theatrical and fun; but anything "daring" or "ground-breaking" or influential about their shows came from other contributors - book writers and directors.

Also - all this talk about the "musical stylings" of Brecht and Weill, or the musical style of Kander & Ebb - - if you're talking about music, you're only talking about the composer. Brecht and Ebb have nothing to do with the musical language used by their composing partners.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:03 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:10pm

But even if was Prince who brought Brecht's staging techniques back from East Berlin, Kander and Ebb had to be able to execute the writing.

We give Sondheim credit for dramatic songwriting, even though he too works with strong directors. I'm not saying K&E are Sondheim's equal, but don't they deserve the same consideration?

[newintown]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:15pm

I think we're talking about two different things; however, Sondheim, as a songwriter, has been much more adventurous and ground-breaking than K & E.

John & Fred wrote fun, simple songs that could be transformed by great directors and book writers into something with additional layers of meaning.

Sondheim writes material that is automatically more complex and more deeply-layered.

Kander & Ebb, for instance, could never write musical scenes like "A Weekend In The Country," "Simple," or "Epiphany."

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:19pm

The music Weill wrote for the shows he wrote in America have a somewhat different sound than the music he wrote for his shows with Brecht.

A Director is correct. In fact, Weill readily embraced American musical idioms. (This was in contrast to Brecht, who wrote a masterpiece in Santa Monica (GALILEO), but never really adapted to the entertainment industry in the U.S.)

[jv92]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:22pm

"Kander & Ebb, for instance, could never write musical scenes like "A Weekend In The Country," "Simple," or "Epiphany."'

I think "Mrs. A" from THE RINK is a damned good musical scene.

Comparing Kander and Ebb to Sondheim, though, is like comparing apples to oranges. Totally different, totally valid, and both wonderful.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:23pm

Kander & Ebb, for instance, could never write musical scenes like "A Weekend In The Country," "Simple," or "Epiphany."

We all toil in the shadow of Sondheim. I never said he and K&E were equals.

But I don't see how "He Had It Coming" is simpler than the song-scenes you mention. And if you attribute some of the song's brilliance to Fosse (who helped, no doubt), you have to note that Sondheim himself admits that "Weekend" was based on improvisations by the actors under Prince's direction.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:32pm

According to Kander, Thornton Wilder's nephew withdrew the rights to Skin of Our Teeth.
InDepth InterView: John Kander

[newintown]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:37pm

"The Cell Block Tango" (as the song is called), is much simpler, musically/lyrically than "A Weekend in the Country." "The Cell Block Tango" is basically the same brief chorus repeated several times; the variety and humor of the song comes from the monologues of the murderesses scattered throughout (the exact attribution of which we can never know), not the lyrics.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:50pm

I'm not sure what we're arguing about, newintown, except the title of "The Cell Block Tango". I appreciate the correction. But the spoken sections are also part of the song.

If your point is that Ebb is not Sondheim's equal as rhymester, well, who is?

(And for the record, even Sondheim admits that "Simple" is too clever for its own good.)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:52pm

According to Kander, Thornton Wilder's nephew withdrew the rights to Skin of Our Teeth.

According to a friend who has worked with them, they who control that estate are notoriously difficult.



Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:52 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:57pm

"I'm not sure what we're arguing about, newintown, except the title of "The Cell Block Tango". I appreciate the correction. But the spoken sections are also part of the song."

No, I would say that speeches that long are generally the work of the book writer, who, as discussed earlier, was originally Ebb, but then totally re-written by Fosse and others.

Just because someone speaks during music, that doesn't mean the lyricist wrote those words (you can say the same for the scenes between each section of "A Weekend In The Country").

"If your point is that Ebb is not Sondheim's equal as rhymester, well, who is?"

When did I say anything about rhymes? I've been discussing complex construction in music and lyrics.

I feel that I should take this opportunity to restate that I love the shows by and work of Kander & Ebb; all I've been discussing here is the idea (introduced by others) that their songs were somehow revolutionary or ground-breaking.




Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:57 PM

[jjackson]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:15pm

John Kander has three great strengths. He is a superb melodist. He has said that his favorite composer is Jerome Kern. One can hear why. He also has the uncanny ability to adapt his score to whatever time period is required by the text. Finally, he can support and enhance the director's concept, so that the piece has a harmonious unity. He does not write show tunes. He creates musical theatre.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:37pm

jjackson, I agree with everything you write except the part about adapting to the period of the play. I think you could take numbers from COMPANY (eta, obviously I mean CHICAGO, as the next poster points out), CABARET, ZORBA and THE SCOTTSBORO BOYS and exchange them.

What Kander DID do is create aural worlds in which his signature musical style somehow seemed organic.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:37 PM

[A Director]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:41pm

Kander and Ebb did not write Company. I think you mean Chicago.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:45pm

newintown, what are we quarreling about? I said from the first that K&E are NOT Sondheim's equals. (The reference to rhyming was just me being glib.)

I don't doubt that speeches from "Cell Block" came in full or in part from a draft of the libretto. But Sondheim in his book openly speaks of "Simple" as a joint creation of his and Laurents'. That's how musical theater songs have traditionally been written (since the "unified" musical of R&H): with a good bit of borrowing from the libretto.

So is it your argument that because K&E aren't as cerebral as Stephen Sondheim (again, who is?), they contributed NOTHING to musical theater?

If nothing else, the long runs of CABARET and CHICAGO (not to mention the successes of the films) have kept the sound of the American musical (even with a healthy dose of Weimar opera added) alive in this century. Not even Sondheim could do that.

And even if Prince and/or Masteroff (or Lerner and Weill in LOVE LIFE) absorbed the idea of "on-stage songs" commenting on the characters and action, Kander and Ebb had to learn the technique and, I would argue, did it better than anyone except Sondheim.
Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:45 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:47pm

Kander and Ebb did not write Company. I think you mean Chicago.

Of course. Thank you. What's sad is that I actually DO proofread my own posts. Imagine the errors if I did not!

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:47 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 6:18pm

Kander & Ebb are far superior to Sondheim. Kander knows how to write a melody, and a damn good one.

I love almost all their scores, but my favorite score - and show -- was 70, Girls, 70. I remember feeling euphoria in that theatre.

I also have a fond spot for Flora, and find The Happy Time unjustly neglected.

If their "influence" can be said to be less pronounced than Sondheim's it's because their work hasn't had the nefarious effect that his has. We can thank the elites for that.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 6:42pm

I think K&E have had a few opportunities to write true musical theater scenes (a la "Weekend in the Country") rather than songs, and have created some beautiful ones over the years. I'm thinking of "Hey Mrs. A" and "All the Children in a Row" from THE RINK, and "The Day After That" from SPIDERWOMAN.

Maybe one thing K&E (or specifically Fred Ebb) lacks that Ira Gershwin, Hammerstein, Porter and Sondheim all have is a definitive printed compilation of his lyrics in one volume. Seeing their handiwork laid out in print from beginning to end would add so much to their place in Broadway history. Not to mention being a gap in our libraries we're still aching to fill.


Updated On: 4/29/13 at 06:42 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 6:50pm

I'd love to see THE COLLECTED LYRICS OF FRED EBB published!

But in the meantime, his book on the team, COLORED LIGHTS, has a generous sampling of entire lyrics, at least one per show. As you suggest it's an excellent demonstration of just how deceptively simple K&E's work could be.

[jv92]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 7:29pm

I emailed The Fred Ebb Foundation about 2 years ago re: a collection of Ebb lyrics, and got a response from Mitch Bernard, Fred's nephew and he assured me a "collected lyrics" book was in the works. I hope it still is.

COLORED LIGHTS is really a great book. One of my favorite theater books of all time. If you haven't read it, go for it!

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 7:44pm

frontrowcentre2, do you have any insights regarding why The Visit never seems to get off the ground, even after so many attempts?

Sorry, I do not, not having seen any of the regional stagings and with no published script or recording to digest. I do think the source material has the basis for a fascinating musical but one of those that runs a season and then has a life in regional theatres, not a show that will run 10+ years on Broadway. (But then who would have ever predicted CHICAGO would get revived and run 15+ years?)

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 7:59pm

Relevant to this discussion is Dennis Kucherawy's blog about this week's 20th anniversary of the Broadway opening of KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN.

Dennis was with Livent at the time and he also wrote the notes used in the CD booklet.

Dennis will be a guest for a segment on my radio program this Sunday morning (May 5) at 9 am (Eastern time) and we'll play tracks from the original cast recording. (You can listen live at www.proudfm.com)



“Kiss of the Spider Woman” – 20th Anniversary

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:09pm

Will you ask him why Valentin seems to be nothing but a conman in the musical?

In the novel and play, each man is equally transformed by the other. In the musical, Molina seems to be merely "used" by Valentin; you know, like we limp-wristed homos tend to be used by real men.

I find the musical incredibly offensive to gay men AND South Americans and would like to know what the hell they were thinking?!

[ggersten]

Posted: 4/10/15 at 1:36pm

in light of The Visit, an interesting discussion from days gone by.