Kander and Ebb's Influence on the Broadway Theatre. — Page 2

Any musical show is much more than just its score, and Kander and Ebb only did music and lyrics. Ebb contributed to the books for only two of his shows, and the successful one (Chicago) was re-written almost completely by Fosse and his pals (like Herb Gardner), but without official credit.

Their songs are good - theatrical and fun; but anything "daring" or "ground-breaking" or influential about their shows came from other contributors - book writers and directors.

Also - all this talk about the "musical stylings" of Brecht and Weill, or the musical style of Kander & Ebb - - if you're talking about music, you're only talking about the composer. Brecht and Ebb have nothing to do with the musical language used by their composing partners.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:03 PM

I think we're talking about two different things; however, Sondheim, as a songwriter, has been much more adventurous and ground-breaking than K & E.

John & Fred wrote fun, simple songs that could be transformed by great directors and book writers into something with additional layers of meaning.

Sondheim writes material that is automatically more complex and more deeply-layered.

Kander & Ebb, for instance, could never write musical scenes like "A Weekend In The Country," "Simple," or "Epiphany."

"Kander & Ebb, for instance, could never write musical scenes like "A Weekend In The Country," "Simple," or "Epiphany."'

I think "Mrs. A" from THE RINK is a damned good musical scene.

Comparing Kander and Ebb to Sondheim, though, is like comparing apples to oranges. Totally different, totally valid, and both wonderful.

According to Kander, Thornton Wilder's nephew withdrew the rights to Skin of Our Teeth.
InDepth InterView: John Kander

I'm not sure what we're arguing about, newintown, except the title of "The Cell Block Tango". I appreciate the correction. But the spoken sections are also part of the song.

If your point is that Ebb is not Sondheim's equal as rhymester, well, who is?

(And for the record, even Sondheim admits that "Simple" is too clever for its own good.)

"I'm not sure what we're arguing about, newintown, except the title of "The Cell Block Tango". I appreciate the correction. But the spoken sections are also part of the song."

No, I would say that speeches that long are generally the work of the book writer, who, as discussed earlier, was originally Ebb, but then totally re-written by Fosse and others.

Just because someone speaks during music, that doesn't mean the lyricist wrote those words (you can say the same for the scenes between each section of "A Weekend In The Country").

"If your point is that Ebb is not Sondheim's equal as rhymester, well, who is?"

When did I say anything about rhymes? I've been discussing complex construction in music and lyrics.

I feel that I should take this opportunity to restate that I love the shows by and work of Kander & Ebb; all I've been discussing here is the idea (introduced by others) that their songs were somehow revolutionary or ground-breaking.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:57 PM

jjackson, I agree with everything you write except the part about adapting to the period of the play. I think you could take numbers from COMPANY (eta, obviously I mean CHICAGO, as the next poster points out), CABARET, ZORBA and THE SCOTTSBORO BOYS and exchange them.

What Kander DID do is create aural worlds in which his signature musical style somehow seemed organic.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:37 PM

newintown, what are we quarreling about? I said from the first that K&E are NOT Sondheim's equals. (The reference to rhyming was just me being glib.)

I don't doubt that speeches from "Cell Block" came in full or in part from a draft of the libretto. But Sondheim in his book openly speaks of "Simple" as a joint creation of his and Laurents'. That's how musical theater songs have traditionally been written (since the "unified" musical of R&H): with a good bit of borrowing from the libretto.

So is it your argument that because K&E aren't as cerebral as Stephen Sondheim (again, who is?), they contributed NOTHING to musical theater?

If nothing else, the long runs of CABARET and CHICAGO (not to mention the successes of the films) have kept the sound of the American musical (even with a healthy dose of Weimar opera added) alive in this century. Not even Sondheim could do that.

And even if Prince and/or Masteroff (or Lerner and Weill in LOVE LIFE) absorbed the idea of "on-stage songs" commenting on the characters and action, Kander and Ebb had to learn the technique and, I would argue, did it better than anyone except Sondheim.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:45 PM

Kander & Ebb are far superior to Sondheim. Kander knows how to write a melody, and a damn good one.

I love almost all their scores, but my favorite score - and show -- was 70, Girls, 70. I remember feeling euphoria in that theatre.

I also have a fond spot for Flora, and find The Happy Time unjustly neglected.

If their "influence" can be said to be less pronounced than Sondheim's it's because their work hasn't had the nefarious effect that his has. We can thank the elites for that.

I'd love to see THE COLLECTED LYRICS OF FRED EBB published!

But in the meantime, his book on the team, COLORED LIGHTS, has a generous sampling of entire lyrics, at least one per show. As you suggest it's an excellent demonstration of just how deceptively simple K&E's work could be.

frontrowcentre2, do you have any insights regarding why The Visit never seems to get off the ground, even after so many attempts?

Sorry, I do not, not having seen any of the regional stagings and with no published script or recording to digest. I do think the source material has the basis for a fascinating musical but one of those that runs a season and then has a life in regional theatres, not a show that will run 10+ years on Broadway. (But then who would have ever predicted CHICAGO would get revived and run 15+ years?)

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Will you ask him why Valentin seems to be nothing but a conman in the musical?

In the novel and play, each man is equally transformed by the other. In the musical, Molina seems to be merely "used" by Valentin; you know, like we limp-wristed homos tend to be used by real men.

I find the musical incredibly offensive to gay men AND South Americans and would like to know what the hell they were thinking?!