Kander and Ebb's Influence on the Broadway Theatre.

Just wondering what other people felt about the pairs place in Broadway history. I always feel they get slightly forgotten about when it comes to 'who has contributed to shaping broadway'. I personally think they have offered some of the most daring shows on the broadway stage, and should be referred too alongside Sondheim. I feel their commercial success with the likes of Cabaret and Chicago has somewhat had an effect on this.

Just curious of others opinions :)

Kander and Ebb are my favorite songwriters, and highly influential TO ME, and wonderful, and all that. I really love them. I think their influence comes in the subject matter they wrote about, and the theatricality of their work. But I wouldn't say they were as influential as Sondheim or Rodgers and Hammerstein. Certainly my favorites, though.

I think much of the credit for CABARET should go to Hal Prince, as well as Masteroff, Kander, and Ebb, but the rest of the shows are K&E's brilliance. The fact that CHICAGO still holds up well without Fosse's original work is a testament to their great work. No disrespect to Fosse, of course.

I think that the portrayal of K&E in ALL THAT JAZZ is accurate, but mean spirited, by the way.

I think that the portrayal of K&E in ALL THAT JAZZ is accurate, but mean spirited, by the way.

Certainly mean-spirited. Fred Ebb claims, in COLORED LIGHTS, that the portrayals (also that of Hal Prince) all came out of Fosse's paranoid imagination.

As for wanting a hit, maybe there's some truth. K&E had commercial hits ("My Coloring Book") before their first Broadway show. But I think it's an enormous stretch to portray them as "selling out" to the pop audience. By the time of CHICAGO (mid-70s), that market for Broadway music was already largely gone.

If anything, K&E held on to their sound even while lesser talents tried to make rock and disco work on Broadway.

*****

I think much of the credit for CABARET should go to Hal Prince....

I didn't mean to take anything away from the directors or choreographers. I was merely answering the question as to why, IMO, K&E aren't given more credit by theater historians.

Someday soon an historian will come along and write a brilliant book restoring K&E to their rightful place. Just watch!

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:17 PM

Haven't seen it, don't know it.

But I agree with you 100%!

I can hardly wait to see THE SCOTTSBORO BOYS in LA in May.

darquegk, did they do that before CABARET? (It's been awhile since I heard the score to FLORA.)

I'm wondering how much Prince's fascination with Brecht and German theater pushed them in that direction.

(ETA of course the success of THREEPENNY OPERA off-Broadway in the 1950s pushed a lot of composers in that direction. But I agree with you that only Kander & Ebb fully made the sound popular, dramatically effective AND "American".)

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:33 PM

Kander and Ebb, David Bowie and Danny Elfman have done more for the musical stylings of Brecht and Weill in America than Brecht and Weill ever did themselves. It's like Seinfeld- the resonances are felt more than the presence.

"(P.S. Look at the way Fosse dramatizes Kander and Ebb in the bio-film, ALL THAT JAZZ: he treats them as fawning and backstabbing lightweights only concerned with writing hit songs. That was entirely unfair, but can't have helped the public view of them.)"

I think the "Sinatra will never record it" line is an amalgam of Cy Coleman and maybe Stephen Schwartz. But when the songwriter auditions the "Take Off With Us" number for Gideon, that performance is a pure parody of Fred Ebb singing. And Kander quietly playing the piano.

I think a lot of the characters are amalgams of different B'way types, not specific people. Like that director could be Hal Prince, but couldn't it also be Gower Champion?

I misread this as their influence on the actual Broadway Theatre and was like - I don't remember anyone asking for their say in the design of the theatre.

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Fascinating thread since KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN made its belated Broadway debut (after warm-ups in Toronto and London) 20 years ago this week.

Broadway influence is a tricky question. Certinly CABARET found bold new ways to integrate music songs, particularly the melding of the "performance songs" with the "plot songs." But was that K&E or was it Prince and Masteroff or maybe (best case) all 4 working together. My belief is that Prince as both director and producer provided the leadership needed. Subsequent shows have been quite variable...perhaps due to the lack of a strong lead producer who could guide the creators. K & E also seem to gavitate towarsd shows set in some form of show business: CABARET, 70 GIRLS 70, CHICAGO, THE ACT, WOMAN OF THE YEAR, an CURTAINS. Perhaps they have milked that vein too much?

THE HAPPY TIME (which is not show biz show) has several lovely songs, but it doesn't play on the cast album as a cohesive score. ZORBA (with Prince again at the helm) has a unifying concept but perhaps due to the source material, the completed show doesn't play on stage. (To be fair I have only seen the Anthony Quinn revival, which Prince had nothing to do with... and his contributions were sorely missed!) 70 GIRLS, 70 I have never seen and know only from the cast album. It sounds like it should have been great fun and there are a number of terrific stand-alone songs but no sense of story is communicated through the score. CHICAGO has always played well on stage and on record.

Since Ebb collaborated with Fosse on writing the book, I think the ongoing success is again due to strong leadership (Fosse) and the fact that everyone shared the same point of view.

With THE ACT (I did see this just after it opened in 1977) Liza was a force of nature but the book by George Furth was royal mess. It seemed as if Furth was counting on Kander and Ebb to give Liza plenty of showstopping moments to distract the audience form the meandering and ultimately pointless story. (Notice how the cast album does not include a synopsis. Listening to the songs you have no idea what the show is all about.) Still the show was doing sell-out business...until Liza decided she was too tired to go on.

WOMAN OF THE YEAR had a great plot..borrowed form a classic film but altered enough to make it a stand-alone piece. (Having seen the film I really wondered why the credit to the screenplay because aside from the title and basic premise the show and the movie really don't have a lot in common.) Once again a dynamic star (Lauren Bacall) kept the show going and here again the score is rich in plot and character details. Plot and character also figure in their richly rewarding score for THE RINK which had the misfortune to open on Broadway in a very crowded spring season and got caught in the Tony Awards crossfire between Jerry Herman's glitzy LA CAGE AUX FOLLES and Sondheim's cerebral SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE. (Two other musicals that season were also noteworthy - BABY and TAP DANCE KID.) THE RINK, was ultimately sunk by Liza Minnelli's spotty attendance record. An excellent local production a few years ago served as a reminder of what a rich piece this is for two strong leading ladies and a smallish male ensemble of singers/dancers.

Then came KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN. I was at the Toronto premiere and so knocked out that I bought a ticket to see it again a week later. The score with it's Latin-American sounds and rhythms, is very focused on telling the complex story. The problem with this show is an overly long first act that often loses focus. With Prince directing (and that mastermind of financial manipulation Garth Drabinsky producing) the show was a "nervous" hit in Toronto the summer of 1992. Despite encouraging reviews, it played to smallish houses all summer before going to London where it got even better reviews and often even smaller houses. Booked into the Broadhurst Theatre (one of Broadway's smaller theaters) it did outstanding business..until Tony winner Brent Carver decided to leave to return to his home base in Stratford, Ontario. The production never really recovered from his departure, and even Chita Rivera was not enough of a draw. When she left the show Vanessa Williams came in and the ticket sales spiked. Even so, the high operating costs meant many weeks the show was pulling in less than needed to cover costs, and while Drabinsky kept telling his investors it was a solid hit it never really was. I would love to see an full staging or even an Encores concert version of this show.

Next for K & E was STEEL PIER which I felt had a wonderful score and -once again - an unfocused book that wasted too much time trying to flesh out all the supporting characters when all audiences really cared about was the central romance. Susan Storman's staging was dazzling but as the dance marathon continues she was forced to feature dancers looking progressively more exhausted so the exuberance of the opening routines could not be sustained. Again if the songs had been better integrated, especially in the second half, the production would have been more involving. Notice on the CD that the story is really only carried in the 2nd half through dialogue exchanges and not in the songs themselves. Still, despite the flaws I found it a mostly enjoyable show and I keep encouraging our local groups to keep it in mind when looking for a less well known show to present.

After Fred Ebb died, John Kander went on to finish two shows they had started together. Neither proved to be successful. I did not get to see CURTAINS and I have to say the cast album has not left me with a burning desire to see it. Those I have talked to who did see it claim the performances - not the material - made the show work. The recording seems to support that. Happily I did get to see SCOTTBORO BOYS and once again enjoyed it so much I bought a ticket to see it a second time 4 nights later. It is a case where (for me at least) the cast album makes less of an impact. The staging was certainly breathtaking, and the Broadway cast was indeed excellent... one the best ensemble casts I have ever seen. I don't know what was keeping audiences away at the time, the reviews were encouraging, but for whatever reason it just never took off. Maybe it was the title coupled with an ad campaign that did not clearly establish what the show was about. The score did help develop the story and characters so the failure was not due to K & E's efforts.

So, it seems their most satisfying shows, are those where their songs are integrated. Building a musical involves collaboration and everyone has to be on the same page right from the start. Kander and Ebb seem to work best with strong leadership. When left to fend for themselves their work, while still entertaining is less spectacular. Their lack of success has limited their influence: New writers emulate Sondheim, Larson, & J.R.Brown.
But younger writers would do well to study the Kander and Ebb shows - successes as well as failures - to learn more about constructing a musical.

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Kander and Ebb have written most of my favorite songs and made me fall in love with Broadway. As much as I adore Sondheim and ALW shows, I can't help getting excited every time I hear New York, New York, All that jazz, Cabaret... Their music is timeless and IMO is the quintessential representation of the glamorous Broadway show tune.

The problem with determining their influence on Broadway relies on whether it's possible to separate their work from their collaborators work. I think it could be done with cabaret to a certain degree, but could we really think of Chicago without Fosse's influence? Both shows were groundbreaking and remain to this day part of the face of Musical Theatre but the question is how much of that can be solely attributed to K&E.

"The fact that CHICAGO still holds up well without Fosse's original work is a testament to their great work."

Of course the success of the show is a testament to their work, but Fosse's vision is definitely still there. He was the one that wanted the show to be dark, K&E wanted it to be a lighter.

Yes, I know "Mac the Knife" was a bigger commercial hit than Sondheim has ever had, but that had more to do with Sinatra, I would argue.

Frank Sinatra has nothing to do with the success of "Mack the Knife."

Sinatra didn't record the song till 1984, when he very graciously gave the definitive-recording credit to Bobby Darin.

Louis Armstrong recorded the first swing version of the song in 1956, and it made the Hit Parade.

Two years later, Bobby Darin recorded it. It hit #1 on the general Billboard chart, #6 on the Black Singles chart and received the Grammy as Record of the Year.

And then in 1960, at a concert in West Berlin that was being recorded live for an album, Ella Fitzgerald forgot the lyrics and kept going, improvising an unforgettable blend of endearing near-panic, her spectacular scat syllables, the current Blitzstein translation of Brecht's words, appreciative mentions of the success both Armstrong and Darin already had with the song, and her crowd-pleasing Louis Armstrong imitation.

http://youtu.be/YI5fU6ZbyaA

But Frank Sinatra had nothing to do with it!

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And where is The Skin of Our Teeth these days?