LOVE NEVER DIES - US Tour- Page 18

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 7:15pm

The characters don't have to be super fleshed out in the original to recognize that the sequel takes what development they do have in Phantom and destroys it. Madame Giry isn't a very complex character at all, but Love Never Dies takes what little she does in the original and makes it make no sense storywise. How does she go from literally helping Raoul into the Phantom's lair to save Christine to being bitter and resentful towards Christine for running off with Raoul instead of staying for the Phantom's genius and art? The Phantom blackmailing Christine into singing for him by threatening to kidnap/murder her son if she doesn't comply is behavior fitting the original...all the scenes before the big, climactic moment when he realizes he's being an a**hole and lets Christine go with Raoul, anyway. So it seems like the lesson the Phantom learned at the end of the first show just doesn't matter anymore. Raoul, the guy who (not very wisely, I know) risks his life to save Christine becomes an abusive drunk. Christine, who has an entire love duet with her childhood sweetheart and is happily engaged to him, to the point where part of the reason she kisses the Phantom in the first place is to save Raoul's life, suddenly decides she wants the kidnapping, blackmailing murderer instead and flits off to have an affair the night before her wedding. 

The only character change I don't care much about is Meg, because she doesn't really do anything in the original that clashes with the sequel (or much of anything at all, really). But the rest of the characters' actions in LND just don't match up at all with the first; the characters don't have to be three-dimensional masterpieces of storytelling in order to see that. I'm not even an avid LND hater or anything, and I think the entire "Love Should Die" campaign was stupid, but it's not fair to mock the people who discuss inconsistencies in the writing. 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 8:16pm

Well, one might argue that suddenly deciding "OMG, I've really wanted to spend my life with the emotionally damaged murderer ALL ALONG!" has an element of romantic delusion in it . . .

And one might argue that millions of audience members have cried with romantic delusional sympathy over the emotionally damaged murderer cum tragically romantic anti-hero during the bows of POTO. 

How does she go from literally helping Raoul into the Phantom's lair to save Christine to being bitter and resentful towards Christine for running off with Raoul instead of staying for the Phantom's genius and art?

That's an easy one. Ten years spent devoted to her daughter's life and career.  Before she was "literally helping Raoul", she knew about him and protected him.

So it seems like the lesson the Phantom learned at the end of the first show just doesn't matter anymore.

You assume there was a lesson learned and that he evolved and changed.  The mob was closing in and he let them go and escaped. 

Raoul, the guy who (not very wisely, I know) risks his life to save Christine becomes an abusive drunk. 

We know literally nothing else about him.  The fact that he's an abusive drunk is the most realistic thing (and easily the most interesting thing) about either show if you've ever known an alcoholic.  People are just mad that he was a nice nobody that turned into a mean somebody and they just wanted him to remain the hot useless hunk, like Cinderella's Prince.

Christine, who has an entire love duet with her childhood sweetheart and is happily engaged to him, to the point where part of the reason she kisses the Phantom in the first place is to save Raoul's life, suddenly decides she wants the kidnapping, blackmailing murderer instead and flits off to have an affair the night before her wedding.

Her line before she kisses him is "God give me courage to show you are not alone".  After they leave, who knows?  You're trying to apply logic to an illogical plot and then criticize the sequel for being illogical.  This is the girl who went off with the creepy guy who showed up in a mirror in her dressing room thinking he was her dead father.  At what point do you stop laughing long enough to defend the character in such an absurd manner?

But the rest of the characters' actions in LND just don't match up at all with the first

They don't have to!  And if they did, it would be twice as boring without the score and staging of the original.

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 9:44am

MCfan2 said: "To buy the events of LND, you have to buy that unrequited love turned into requited love, and that Christine went back and had an affair with the Phantom, almost immediately after she left him in POTO."

My problem with this reasoning is it requires the presumption that the Phantom's love was "unrequited". People like to interpret it this way, but in truth, this is not stated or depicted in the original show. Despite her expressed fear of the Phantom, Christine does things that contradict the notion that she wants nothing to do with him. Remember, when Raoul leaves her dressing room, she actually locks him out, entreats the Phantom to show himself, and then willingly steps through the mirror to join him. The next day, Christine stays home and makes no effort to contact Raoul. But most importantly, at the end of the final lair scene, she hesitates to leave the Phantom when Raoul is pulling her away and she returns alone to give him the ring. She doesn't say a word, but she is in tears and visibly torn about the choice she is making. The audience, however, is not privy to her actual thoughts.

There have been innumerable romantic tales over the years (books, films, TV shows, etc.) in which the person at the center of a love triangle is torn between the "safe and respectable" choice and the "passionate and dangerous" choice. Typically, those around the individual (parents, siblings, friends, etc.) push the central character to the "safe and respectable" choice, and the protagonist bends in that direction to save face and protect their social standing. In real life, there are a lot of people who choose a comfortable, secure existence and live to regret it when they find themselves in a sham marriage/relationship, and they live out their days wondering "What if...?".

In LND, Christine has had 10 years to wonder what her life might have been like with the passionate genius of the Phantom instead of the staid, socially respectable life of a vicomtesse. Her contemplation of such profoundly life-changing possibilities would surely have been discernible by her husband. The knowledge that one's partner questions the viability of their relationship leads many people in the real world to alcohol and bitterness. 

Also, there is no mention in LND of the Phantom and Christine having "an affair" after the final lair scene in the original show. They refer only to a single night, before she married Raoul, when she sought out the Phantom and they slept together. It went no further because the Phantom, fearing her rejection in the light of day, left before she awakened, and she interpreted this as abandonment.

Updated On: 3/2/18 at 09:44 AM

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 9:53am

acm8468 said: "Emailed this company last night about trying to obtain a program and the new cd.... their responses:

We were only able to release these items to the theaters recently, but we will have them available on our website very soon! If you would like to be notified when these new items arrive, we suggest signing up for our newsletter via our website!"

Thanks for sharing this news!

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 10:44am

"Also, there is no mention in LND of the Phantom and Christine having "an affair" after the final lair scene in the original show. They refer only to a single night, before she married Raoul, when she sought out the Phantom and they slept together. It went no further because the Phantom, fearing her rejection in the light of day, left before she awakened, and she interpreted this as abandonment."

Um...how is running off the night before your wedding and sleeping with a different man not having an affair? She still cheated on Raoul, even if it only happened once. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 10:56am

Elfuhbuh said: "Um...how is running off the night before your wedding and sleeping with a different man not having an affair? She still cheated on Raoul, even if it only happened once."

Spending one night with someone is generally referred to as a one night stand, not an affair.

I never said anything about "cheating".

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 11:03am

Um...how is running off the night before your wedding and sleeping with a different man not having an affair? She still cheated on Raoul, even if it only happened once.

It sounded like she abandoned Raoul intending not to return.  She only came back because she was abandoned herself by the Phantom.  "Affair" is just semantics because she returned to Raoul and didn't tell him what happened, but there was no ongoing love affair between Christine and the Phantom while she was with Raoul.  And whether you choose to define it as an "affair" or not is really pointless because it's all just fictional fantasy soap opera melodrama that has no effect on either story.

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 11:34am

Mister Matt said: "Well, one might argue that suddenly deciding "OMG, I've really wanted to spend my life with the emotionally damaged murderer ALL ALONG!" has an element of romantic delusion in it . . .

And one might argue that millions of audience members have cried with romantic delusional sympathy over the emotionally damaged murderer cum tragically romantic anti-hero during the bows of POTO."

And why not? People cry over all sorts of things in drama. I cried the other night at La Boheme even though Rodolfo and Mimi probably would have kept having all kinds of problems if she'd lived. You can cry over a character without wanting or needing to go back and undo what happened in the show.

 

Updated On: 3/2/18 at 11:34 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 12:30pm

And why not? People cry over all sorts of things in drama. I cried the other night at La Boheme even though Rodolfo and Mimi probably would have kept having all kinds of problems if she'd lived.  You can cry over a character without wanting or needing to go back and undo what happened in the show.

You've missed my point completely.  If the audience has no problem connecting and emotionally sympathizing with an "emotionally damaged murderer", then why not a character?  Especially one we know so little about?  Except the fact that she's naive, has daddy issues, and has a boyfriend who doesn't do much except hang around.  Self-guided boats, magical lassos, falling chandeliers...all fine, but the idea that Christine may have changed her mind about her man?  OUTRAGEOUS!  SHE WOULD NEVER!  IT'S RIDICULOUS!  SHE ONLY FOLLOWED HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT HE WAS HER DEAD DADDY!

I mean, really.  Just because you get off the crazy train at the second stop, doesn't mean you can claim you never rode it.

Updated On: 3/2/18 at 12:30 PM

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 12:51pm

Sure, if you want to advocate the undoing of all the character growth and life lessons that caused her to get off the train in the first place.  

[Pithyaspromised]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 4:50pm

Perfect response is perfect. Since ALW cherry-picked the Leroux story elements he wanted to use for POTO, I see no issue with the same characters behaving differently 10 years later, with a decade of introspection and 'what ifs' between them.

"Why, you love him! Your fear, your terror, all of that is just love and love of the most exquisite kind, the kind which people do not admit even to themselves," said Raoul bitterly."

Updated On: 3/2/18 at 04:50 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 5:42pm

Sure, if you want to advocate the undoing of all the character growth and life lessons that caused her to get off the train in the first place.

That sentence makes no sense.  Who are you talking about?  Christine?  I wasn't saying she was the one on the crazy train.  What character growth and life lessons do you believe are being undone?  If you think I'm advocating the undoing of the "character growth" and "life lessons" of Christine in POTO, I'm totally fine with that.  There's almost nothing to undo.  It's a gothic melodrama, not an Arthur Miller play.

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 7:37pm

Mister Matt said: "Just because you get off the crazy train at the second stop, doesn't mean you can claim you never rode it."

That’s good stuff right there. 

[whitestar45]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 9:09pm

dmwnc1959 said: "Mister Matt said: "Just because you get off the crazy train at the second stop, doesn't mean you can claim you never rode it."

That’s good stuff right there."

 

All of this back and forth about LND, IMHO, is good stuff.

 

Updated On: 3/2/18 at 09:09 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/2/18 at 9:16pm

Are you kidding?  It's better than either show, really.  Once someone brings up "character growth" and "life lessons", grab the popcorn because the trailers have ended, the lights are going down and the real showing is just starting.

[acm8468]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 10:19am

jacobsnchz14 said: "broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies"

Sorry that I’m just quoting from this post again....but I don’t know how to add a link.... the tour cd of Love Never Dies is now available along with the program and a few other new items for those that are interested.  

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 10:23am

acm8468 said: "jacobsnchz14 said: "broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies"

Sorry that I’m just quoting from this post again....but I don’t know how to add a link.... the tour cd of Love Never Dies is now available along with the program and a few other new items for those that are interested."

Thank you for the update! I emailed the company a couple of weeks ago and they said it would be online soon. Good to hear!

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 10:24am

You add a link by copying and pasting it.

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies/love-never-dies-tour-cd

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 10:25am

LizzieCurry said: "You add a link by copying and pasting it.

https://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies/love-never-dies-tour-cd"

Now if I could just get an album of the filmed production of Cats, I'd be great. Seriously...

[acm8468]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 10:28am

jacobsnchz14 said: "LizzieCurry said: "You add a link by copying and pasting it.

https://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies/love-never-dies-tour-cd"

Now if I could just get an album of the filmed production ofCats, I'd be great. Seriously..."

Thanks for the info....   I just ripped the soundtrack from my CATS dvd....sounds amazing....

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 11:22am

Mister Matt said: "Sure, if you want to advocate the undoing of all the character growth and life lessons that caused her to get off the train in the first place.

That sentence makes no sense. Who are you talking about? Christine? I wasn't saying she was the one on the crazy train."

Yes, I was talking about Christine. Who were you talking about?

 

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 2:11pm

LizzieCurry said: "You add a link by copying and pasting it.

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies/love-never-dies-tour-cd"

Is this a recording of the touring production? Do other shows do this?

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 2:16pm

Babe_Williams said: "LizzieCurry said: "You add a link by copying and pasting it.

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies/love-never-dies-tour-cd"

Is this a recording of the touring production? Do other shows do this?"

Not exactly. If I understand correctly, they started with the original Australian cast recording as a base and then rerecorded one (or two) songs to reflect revised musical arrangements and lyrics that were added to the German production. This version of "The Beauty Underneath" features the "Sing for me!" sequence from the original "Phantom of the Opera" title song, with Gustave singing Christine's part.

[JPeterman]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 2:20pm

I got an online survey today basically asking how interested would I be in seeing Love Never Dies on Broadway.

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/9/18 at 2:27pm

JPeterman said: "I got an online survey today basically asking how interested would I be in seeing Love Never Dies on Broadway."

Dammit, I want mine!