LOVE NEVER DIES - US Tour- Page 17

[whitestar45]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 3:23am

Mister Matt - I keep reading how unrealistic the LND plot is in comparison to POTO. So, a deformed masked  murderer living in the underground canals of a Parisian opera house is realistic?  A ballerina taking voice lessons from someone she's never seen and doesn't know is believable?  When you think about it, LND is more in touch with reality than POTO.

I respect your opinion with regard to the plots but our opinions differ on that point and that's fine with me. I agree with you on everything else. Also, while Will Swenson has the look, the build and the height to be a wonderful Phantom, I think you're right about his vocal range, unless things have changed.

Thanks again for your astute observations and for doing the research to prove your point. 

BTW, have you seen LND US Tour?

[Lot666]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 8:21am

chernjam said: "Lot666 - I have seen similar stuff... I think Sierra would be an easier sell for. I mean I was kind of surprised she was in School of Rock (seemed a waste of a role for her) but obviously did it be cause ALW wanted her and she was available. This would be coming full-circle with this piece, in a much better received production. I can see a scenario where she agrees and is able to talk Ramin into it. It would just make the Broadway premiere of LND that much more anticipated.

But who knows... it is show business. And I'm just speculating here having no idea what's going on in Ramin's or Sierra's life."

I completely agree that ALW would likely have an easier time convincing Ms. Boggess than Mr. Karimloo, and there's also the factor of "what's going on" in their respective lives. Mr. Karimloo has remained fairly consistently busy since leaving the Phantom universe, whereas Ms. Boggess has been somewhat on/off with gigs and has been pretty much coasting of late (mostly one-off performances, no real role since School of Rock).

[Lot666]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 8:24am

Mister Matt said: "let's not pretend that Phans didn't get ridiculously hysterical over it. They did. It was embarrassing. In fact, here is a sample from one of them:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/love-should-die-exposing-the-lunacy-behind-phantom-love-never-dies/the-mission-of-love-should-die/328954166949

That's just the tip of the iceberg."

The fact that they actually built a dedicated website and drafted a "mission statement" tells you all you need to know about the mental state of those people.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 8:54am

I respect your opinion with regard to the plots but our opinions differ on that point and that's fine with me.

How do they differ?  I think they're both fanciful melodrama never intended to be considered realistic in any way.  There's simply no point in attempting to prove one is more realistic than the other, much less make assumptions on the behaviors of characters in LND based on any information given in POTO.  Perhaps it's an amusing game to play, but I don't get why people try so desperately to prove arguments by attempting to dive 100 feet into a 12-inch puddle.

But yes, I did see the tour last Saturday in Chicago.  I also saw version 2.0 of the London production in 2011 and the video of the Australian production.

[whitestar45]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 11:38am

I don’t agree with this statement, “ I think the plot is silly, but the original is almost as bad.”

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/21/18 at 3:57pm

To me, what prevents the original plot from descending into silliness is having a more consistent style and tone, which is much more firmly rooted in European gothic romance.  The fanciful elements are heightened to the point of supernatural abilities.  Most of that is missing in LND, which makes the plot a little harder to swallow and the events become cartoonish.  Keep in mind, I'm not speaking about what seems "believable" because it simply isn't a factor.  To me, LND seems much sillier, probably because it lacks the coherency of style and tone found in the original.  If that makes sense.

[broadwaydanwi]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 3:11pm

So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 3:13pm

broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies

[ermengarde]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 3:36pm

There's a reason this show is not still running in London (and why it took all this time to even reach the US). It's not the group of maybe 5,000 people worldwide (which is a generous estimate. I'm not counting everybody who like the show, only the people who dedicate a significant amount of time to it) who are dedicated Phantom fans. If Phantom fans really had the power to influence things, things would be a lot different casting wise.

The LND reviews have harped on one thing, the terrible plot and character assassinations. ALW has done very little to change this (the core plot) and likely will never will. It's all very well for him, his yes men, and his sycophants on this thread to stick their fingers in their ears and cry "but the operatic voices!". Original Phantom is chock full of flaws (which only becomes more clear when divorced from the original design and direction like I've seen on tour). I agree that based on audios the show is probably at its best here. But it doesn't make it a good show. 

 

[chernjam]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 5:22pm

Has anyone been able to find the new cast recording of LND anywhere online.  Seems weird that they would only have it available at the tour stops/store

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 5:56pm

broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

Here’s a picture I took of the souvenir stand while it was playing in Pittsburgh in early January, and the window card and program I bought:

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 6:02pm

Could you PM me some more photos from the program?

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 6:46pm

jacobsnchz14 said: "Could you PM me some more photos from the program?"

Sent.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 8:18pm

If Phantom fans really had the power to influence things, things would be a lot different casting wise.

Well, the ones who believed they had the power weren't bitching about the cast.

The LND reviews have harped on one thing, the terrible plot and character assassinations.

Wait..."character assassinations"?!?!  Seriously?  LOL  How do one assassinate two-dimensional characters?  Tear them in half like a piece of paper?  I'll never stop finding the weird protection of the original characters wildly funny.  OMG!!  WWRD?!?!*  That's way more stupid than the plot to LND.

People are weird.

*what would Raoul do

[broadwaydanwi]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 8:36pm

dmwnc1959 said: "broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

Here’s a picture I took of the souvenir stand while it was playing in Pittsburgh in early January,and the window card and program I bought:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 2/28/18 at 9:18pm

broadwaydanwi said: "THANK YOU VERY MUCH!"

You’re welcome! Wish I had bought more, though. It’s hard to control myself sometimes at these things, so I pretty much always just get a window card and the occasional show program book, the exceptions being a collector’s mask at “The Phantom of the Opera” and a little Mufasa doll from “The Lion King”. 

 

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 9:41am

chernjam said: "Has anyone been able to find the new cast recording of LND anywhere online. Seems weird that they would only have it available at the tour stops/store"

I PM'd a cast member on social media to ask about this; to that person's knowledge, the CD is currently only available at the merchandise stand. I agreed that it's very odd.

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 10:27am

Mister Matt said: "Wait..."character assassinations"?!?! Seriously? LOL How do one assassinate two-dimensional characters? Tear them in half like a piece of paper? I'll never stop finding the weird protection of the original characters wildly funny. OMG!! WWRD?!?!* That's way more stupid than the plot to LND.

People are weird.

*what would Raoul do"

I'm fairly sure we can all agree that they're fictional characters. That's a given. But it's perfectly legitimate to want fictional characters to have a little consistency and integrity. That isn't a new concept; it's one of the rules of good storytelling. If it weren't, then every review of every play and show and movie and novel would have to avoid any remarks on the characterizations because "what does it matter, they're only two-dimensional and we shouldn't expect anything of them." 

Updated On: 3/1/18 at 10:27 AM

[ermengarde]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 12:32pm

Yeah, you know what, you're right Matt, why should we care about characters!? Let's just be cynical and accept whatever they feed us as not mattering. Let's spend hundreds of dollars on stuff we don't even care about. Media literacy is overrated.

You really seem to have no high regard for either the original Phantom or this musical, but keep coming back to make fun of people for... actually caring about stuff. That's kind of sad.

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 2:28pm

Exactly. The point about the unbelievable and far-fetched plot or characterizations is because they are internally contradictory. Phantom set up a premise which LND then retrospectively destroys but paradoxically is based upon. 

The fact that, almost a decade later, people are still arguing about this (as they did as soon as the concept album came out) to me suggests this show is never going to work. I think it's reached the end of the line now. No matter how many rewrites, these issues are still vociferously complained about. It could have worked as a separate show entirely - but the use of the characters of Phantom and make them behave implausibly, with equally implausible events is ridiculous. The plot holes are so large it is obvious it was scribbled on the back of a napkin. A pretty set can't save a show. This will go the way of The Beautiful Game and The Woman in White; it's not a bizarre commercial venture that will not endure in the repertoire, and it's not kooky enough to have a cult following.

Even if the characterizations/plot hole were ironed out, it still has the fundamental problem of trying to turn an unrequited love story into a requited one; or else risking being a redundant re-run of the original plot in a much more pedestrian, soap opera fashion without any grand guignol.

Updated On: 3/1/18 at 02:28 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 3:52pm

If it weren't, then every review of every play and show and movie and novel would have to avoid any remarks on the characterizations because "what does it matter, they're only two-dimensional and we shouldn't expect anything of them."

You're straying off the subject a bit.  I'm talking about the criticism of the characterizations of the sequel, NOT the original musical.  The acceptance and embracing of the paper-thin characters with little-to-no back stories, but the rejection of the change of the characters from a ten-year gap in the story as inconsistent and/or unrealistic.  The problem is the level of expectation on the sequel based on the level of acceptance of the former, which seems contradictory to me.  The ten-year gap and the application of realistic human changes of behavior seem to be the offenses.  That's what I find so humorous.

But it's perfectly legitimate to want fictional characters to have a little consistency and integrity.

Okay, and you get a little, which is proportionate to the depth of the characters of POTO, actually.  The problem seems to be the idea of these characters being depicted as realistic people who change decade over decade, rather than exist in the less realistic bubble of the consistency and integrity of...what?  Is it preferable to simply repeat the gothic cartoon of the original?  Raoul is a guy who knew Christine when they were children, happens to attend a performance, falls in love with Christine and generally hangs around.  Ten years later, we find out that being a guy who loves Christine and hangs around as an ineffectual hero isn't all there is to him.  And Meg!  What is her consistency and integrity?  She's Raoul without the romance.  Just benign observations and occasional fear.

You really seem to have no high regard for either the original Phantom or this musical, but keep coming back to make fun of people for... actually caring about stuff.

Oh, dear Lord.  Spare me the exaggerated melodrama (POTO and LND have more than enough).  I enjoy both shows to varying degrees and have spoken about them often.  I've seen POTO about half a dozen times and have seen both this tour and the original London production of LND (and watched the Australian video).  I don't "spend hundreds of dollars" on something for which I have "no high regard".  I spent far less than that for LND recently, in fact.  I'm being objective with respect to criticism of the treatment of the characterization of LND when compared to POTO , as well as being objective with respect to the books of both musicals.  However much anyone cares about POTO alone is fine and their level of obsession with it is their own thing.  But if you're whining about "character assassinations" of LND (of which there really are none), then you really seem to not care about the latter and may be spending hundreds of dollars on it, anyway.

It could have worked as a separate show entirely - but the use of the characters of Phantom and make them behave implausibly, with equally implausible events is ridiculous.

They've always behaved implausibly in implausible events!  

The problem seems to be that the characters are not shallow enough and that LND is not a more direct and continuous retread of POTO.

Even if the characterizations/plot hole were ironed out, it still has the fundamental problem of trying to turn an unrequited love story into a requited one

I agree that this is probably the heart of the issue and the catalyst to the plot is based on events that occurred between the two stories rather than on stage.  The kiss between Christine and the Phantom (to the melodramatic disgust of Raoul!) seems to be the inspiration for the catalyst, but the way they attempt to bridge the gap is clumsily written and structured.

or else risking being a redundant re-run of the original plot in a much more pedestrian, soap opera fashion without any grand guignol.

The grand guignol is the only thing that keeps the original plot from being a pedestrian soap opera.  Take away that gothic horror and you've got a very thin very redundant melodrama at its core.  The grand guignol was then replaced with the gothic horror of the freak shows of the early 20th century and much of the score and story are intentionally structured to mirror the original.  I'm not a huge fan of the story for LND, but then, I was never a huge fan of the original story, either.  To me, what sets them apart are the staging and the scores.  POTO is far superior in both.  

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 4:10pm

Mister Matt said: "You're straying off the subject a bit. I'm talking about the criticism of the characterizations of the sequel, NOT the original musical. The acceptance and embracing of the paper-thin characters with little-to-no back stories, but the rejection of the change of the characters from a ten-year gap in the story as inconsistent and/or unrealistic. The problem is the level of expectation on the sequel based on the level of acceptance of the former, which seems contradictory to me. The ten-year gap and the application of realistic human changes of behavior seem to be the offenses. That's what I find so humorous."

The ten-year gap isn't the issue. To buy the events of LND, you have to buy that unrequited love turned into requited love, and that Christine went back and had an affair with the Phantom, almost immediately after she left him in POTO. Yes, people change, but not usually that much that fast. And yes, neither story is exactly realistic, but even in a Gothic-tinged romantic fantasy, one hopes for something a little better than a complete overnight reversal from the lead characters. 

[acm8468]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 4:28pm

jacobsnchz14 said: "broadwaydanwi said: "So, any idea of what's for sale at the souvenir stand? I'm seeing LOVE NEVER DIES this weekend in Chicago, and I'm curious what will be for sale. I'm looking for a program and a poster. I appreciate your help!"

http://broadwaymerchandiseshop.com/shows/love-never-dies"

Emailed this company last night about trying to obtain a program and the new cd.... their responses:

We were only able to release these items to the theaters recently, but we will have them available on our website very soon! If you would like to be notified when these new items arrive, we suggest signing up for our newsletter via our website!

 

If you have any additional questions, please let us know. Have a lovely day!

Best regards,

 

Creative Goods Merchandise

[e-mail]

www.broadwaymerchandiseshop.com

i really wanted a program but they were not ready for the Detroit engagement and the new cd is quite a surprise

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 4:39pm

To buy the events of LND, you have to buy that unrequited love turned into requited love, and that Christine went back and had an affair with the Phantom, almost immediately after she left him in POTO. Yes, people change, but not usually that much that fast. 

Yeah, I mentioned that it was clumsy and the Christine/Phantom kiss at the end of POTO was the obvious springboard for the story.  Of course, we're also expected to assume that Christine is intelligent and sensible in order for the love to be unrequited, but that's not really fleshed out in POTO, either.  She kisses the Phantom and leaves with Raoul, who really didn't do much other than show up, get caught and get released on the Phantom's whim. "Christine, forgive me please forgive me ... I did it all for you, and all for nothing!"  I mean, you've got to admit, based on what we're given, Raoul sounds a bit ridiculous at that point.  But yes, many many MANY people do appear to change that quickly that fast, usually as a result of hiding the truth for far too long.  And maybe that's why the application of the realistic reasoning of human behavior is so offensive to fans of the original story.  It's not that the characters of LND don't behave realistically.  It's that suddenly, they do.  Just not in the way feeds romantic delusions.  It's about the consistency and integrity of melodrama under the pretense of character.

[MCfan2]

Posted: 3/1/18 at 6:30pm

Well, one might argue that suddenly deciding "OMG, I've really wanted to spend my life with the emotionally damaged murderer ALL ALONG!" has an element of romantic delusion in it . . .