My thoughts on NEXT TO NORMAL (Long, possible spoilers)- Page 4

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 1:28am

He's Not Here covers it pretty well. If she brought out the cake, henry asked "who's birthday" it was, natalie said "my brothers", henry said "i didnt know you had a brother" natalie said "I dont" then gabe said to diana "You know i cant blow those out" and left followed by Dan starting the song it would make sense. You'd have to not be paying attention to miss it.


ETA Not everything has to be said explicitly.


also just for the record, ive only had a bootleg for about 8 weeks. And i didn't start really listening to it til about a week before the first preview. Updated On: 1/31/08 at 01:28 AM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 1:33am

Yeah, but the song is all about the struggle within the family. The scene with Henry is effective because of the power behind contextualizing that family. Mental illness doesn't exist in a bubble. Families don't exist in bubbles. And part of the way this all impacts Natalie has to do with the way it infiltrates her life outside of her relationship with her parents. Imagine what it must be like for Natalie to have to explain all of this to her new boyfriend. If you cut that line where she tells him that Gabe died before she was born, you lose that. So that line is not about spoon-feeding or head-beating; I definitely don't see the purpose of that line being explain to the audience that he's dead. You can get that through the song, of course. And it's also not that losing it would cause stuff not to make sense. It's about expanding the realm of the story.

Updated On: 1/31/08 at 01:33 AM

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 1:41am

idk, i just feel like it really detracts from the art of discovery which is so much part of the experience of the audience. While it is a story about a family coping with mental illness, its more Diana's story than anyone elses, at least up to that point and i feel its a betrayal of the processof that. I can honestly understand most of the other changes in the show, the other cuts (even songs like Electricity which was BEAUTIFUL and So Many Ways to Die which was a better set up for Diana's mania than Costco but didn't provide the emotional and plot catalyst that Costco did) But this is one that i just don't understand. For some reason that one just doesn't feel right

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 1:55am

its more Diana's story than anyone elses

No it's not, though. Because her story is quite literally one of impact. She's a catalyst for the demise of relationships. Her story is ABOUT the way illness impacts that family. You can't have her story without them. It's not as compelling without seeing what it's doing to them. I actually think Dan is the most heart-wrenching character in that show. What he's going through just hits so hard.

i just feel like it really detracts from the art of discovery which is so much part of the experience of the audience.

And yes, but another huge part of the audience perspective is that you're watching (in general, not at this particular point) other people discover things that you already know. That happens in theater all. the. time. And part of the reason I think it's so well-done to have it seem like Gabe is a real, living child until that point is because you DO have that moment of realization in the theater. People gasp with surprise. Doesn't that say something? It's effective. I actually think if it were left to be "discovered" little by little, and the audience was left to piece together scattered hints, as you seem to think is better, people would be MORE confused, not less. I don't side with the types of theatergoers who all of the answers handed to them, of course -- and that's why I've been irritated by people's comments that you should know from the very beginning that Gabe is dead -- but I DO think that things need to be made clear, which subtle little hints are not. That kind of technique CAN work in some cases, but it's not appropriate for this show. There's a big difference between clarity and spoon-feeding.

Updated On: 1/31/08 at 01:55 AM

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 2:04am

go go gadget completely misinterpreting my words.


THE GASP MOMENT CAN STILL HAPPEN What im saying is that it can come 45 seconds later and not be with "He died before i was born"
Updated On: 1/31/08 at 02:04 AM

[jordangirl]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 6:10am

Unless they changed the revelation since Sunday night, when they go into the house, Gabe disappears upstairs. They sit at the table (Henry, Natalie and Dan) and Diana gets the cake. The "I didn't know you had a brother"/"I don't." part ends with Natalie saying "He died before I was born." They all kind of freeze. Gabe is nowhere to be seen at that point, and Dan eventually silently blows out the candles.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 6:27am

I didn't think it was a revelation at all. Nobody gasped when I saw it. Nobody even seemed anything close to surprised.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 6:31am

It's been about half and half when I've seen it ~ audible surprise vs. nothing audible. The first time I was surprised. I knew vaguely that there was a dead baby involved, but I didn't get until that moment that Gabe was said dead baby.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 7:03am

At the performance I attended, my biggest qualm was the fact that this so-called "revelation" was so non-chalant.

"Oh, yeah...he died before I was born...let's eat," was what it was.

So non-chalant, nothing truly revelatory. The non-chalant-ness got in the way of any "twist" they were trying to create.


A posting on ATC brings up an interesting point - was the kid a figment of their imaginations, or was he legitimately a ghost haunting a family?

[jordangirl]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 7:43am

They didn't have the "Let's eat" part in when I saw it. Dan and Diana kind of froze, Natalie buried her head in her arms and Henry just looked like he'd rather be anywhere else. Dan moved towards Diana and said something, then Natalie shouted "This is {expletive the site doesn't like}!" Dan said "Language!" Natalie shouted it again and ran upstairs. Henry mumbled something and went after her, leaving Diana and Dan alone.

That's an interesting question. I could see it either way...but he's definitely a presence in their lives, whether "real" or in their minds. Well, at least Diana and Dan's. I think Natalie's more haunted by being compared to the ghost of what's not there. I don't think his presence is as direct with her. It's more how his presence affects Mom and Dad and takes them and their focus away from her.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 7:57am

They didn't have "let's eat" when I saw it either, I was just using it as a figure of speech.

Like on the pilot of Six Feet Under - "Nate, welcome home! Your father's dead and I burned the roast!"

[jordangirl]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 8:09am

Oh, ok. Never saw Six Feet Under, so I don't know.

Maybe I just approach it differently because I have family (aunt, uncle, cousins) who in a lot of ways could be the family in N2N ~ difference being the one son (4 daughters) was killed in an accident when he was 14 and while there's no medication involved (there SHUOLD be), Mom is very much the manic "keep going so everything stays together but continue idolizing the son" person while Dad is in denial of his own feelings about it. Thank god at least some of my cousins are escaping ~ even if only for a couple of years. Because of being around that part of my family at times, it does ring pretty true to life for me. Like, the son's presence (in both cases) is just part of everyday life.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 2:20pm

THE GASP MOMENT CAN STILL HAPPEN What im saying is that it can come 45 seconds later and not be with "He died before i was born"

And the point of what I was saying still remains that that line is NOT about the audience's realization. It's about Natalie. There's that little itty bitty thing in the theater called character development. Because, as Yankeefan says, it's so nonchalant; it's just part of their life. It's just a fact of life. It fits that they just drop it in that way. It's about the family. Not the audience. What I said about the realization was a sidebar, because yes, as I have sufficiently acknowledge, that realization can come from other bits of the text.

You may want to go go gadget your reading comprehension skills while you're at it. And, you know, your understanding of how to put a show together. If it even exists.

(And please, by all means, start throwing some more obscenities in response and have your posts deleted again. All it does is make oh-so clear that you've run out of ways to back up your opinions.)

Updated On: 1/31/08 at 02:20 PM

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 2:50pm

ooh look who's turning into a heinous bitch again. Natalie's revealing it DOES NOTIHNG FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. in fact, I'd say they've messed up her character development with the changes they've made. the way the scene used to go it was revealed even more just how neglected she's been by her mother "you've never even made me a ****ing cake before." So your argument about character development is wrong. We find out MORE about BOTH characters the other way.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 3:26pm

Crap. I had a post all typed up, and then the board crashed.

Anyway.

Yes. it. does. Rather than lay it all out again, I may as well just tell you to re-read the posts I made last night. A huge part of how this impacts Natalie is the effect is has on her life outside of her family and home. It's like when Diana says to Dan, "so three women at work know I'm nuts?" (or whatever it is). Imagine what it must be like for Natalie to be known as the girl whose mother is a nutjob. To say that that line is irrelevant is to disregard that part of her story. If the thrust of the show is about what mental illness does to a family, and this is a family of people who function in the real world, then it also has to touch on those aspects of their lives. That's why we see Natalie at school. That's why we see Dan pick up the phone at work. Hell, that's why we see Diana shopping. It's about the family, yes, but their lives don't merely exist within that house and their own network.

And totally, disagreeing with you automatically = huge bitch! Notice, though, that it wasn't until YOU were rude first. Again. Just like the last time we did this dance. If you're going to give it, you'd better be able to take it. And if I get it, I'm going to give it back. Thankfully, though, I'm not the one who feels the need to resort to outbursts of obscenities.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 3:49pm

I just have to interject...

Liverpool, the problem is that you will, inevitably, be comparing the production to what you saw in previous incarnations.

But this is a new entity. There's no reason to keep saying "well I like the last version better," because that last version isn't gonna rear its head.


And may I say, I had no problem with the character development, and must agree with Emcee.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 3:50pm

God, we're both such meanies.

[salutz1031]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 4:41pm

well i think the fact people are so intense about this show is what makes it a good show...i was there WED night 1/31..adn i dont think i saw so many bway performers in a single audience (Menzel, Diggs, Rapp, Benanti,Shaiman, Wittman, A.Burns, Ashmanaskas, to name a few)...but i think i missed the plot twist at the end...i was sitting real close to the stage, so i think i missed the part where it was revealed that Dan was the patient...i totally didnt get it or see it...HELP!!!! i thought Alice was in rare form, her best role yet! Am i the only one who did like the actress playing Natalie? Anyway I also saw "Sunday" on wed...go see it..quickly!!

[alfgiotir]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 4:44pm

can someone please answer...is there any music/songs/video out there where we can hear/see the music? thanks.

[LeaGirl]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 4:49pm

salutz1031, that "plot twist" was only part of "Feeling Electric" - it is not part of "Next to Normal" - you didn't miss anything.

alfgiotir - not legally, I don't think.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:05pm

if you'd read the thread alf you'd know the answer.

if you search "the site" for Feeling Electric or Next to Normal there is one video of Anthony Rapp, Amy Spanger, Annaleigh Ashford, Joe Cassidy and Ben Schrader (the NYMF cast) singing Feeling Electric at Virgin Records back from sept. 2005.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:09pm

This page doesn't have any music on it yet, but it looks like maybe it's going to at some point:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=312025290

[alfgiotir]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:13pm

yeah i did see that but i was wondering if there was anything else liverpool. maybe something with better quality or of the off-broadway show

[Liverpool]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:44pm

there are things alf, i dont know where to find them though.

[alfgiotir]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:53pm

thanks. guess we are in the same boat