New York Curtain Times in the Past?

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/8/11 at 7:44pm

This is vague question--but I was reding a book about New York drama in the 50s and 60s that made a big point about how, due to its length, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf ha to have a curtain time of 8pm instead of the regular (according to this book) of 9:45 or 8:50. I know when Woolf was revived last it started at, I believe 7:30 due to the length--but I had never heard that the standard curtain time used to be so late. Was this just for dramas or musicals too?

[theatreguy]

Posted: 11/8/11 at 8:39pm

Most shows (plays and musicals) started at 8:45 for many years. That's why the 11 o'clock number got it's name - back then it really did happen at around 11, as opposed to around 10:15 like today.

I believe it was in the late 60's or early 70's when shows started trying out earlier curtain times. At first many tried moving it up to 7, but that was evidently deemed too early so eventually everybody settled on 8.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 11:23am

Right you are, theatreguy.

Like so many other things I happen to know, I learned this fact from "MUSICAL COMEDY, the two most glorious words in the English language!":

I know I won't be late,
'Cause at half past eight
I'm gonna be there.
I'll be waitin' where the lane begins,
Waitin' for you on needles and pins.
And then the world is gonna be mine,
This evening, about a quarter to nine.

Dorothy Brock to Peggy Sawyer, 42nd Street

[daredevil]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 11:46am

During the forties, ffities and early sixties, musicals started at 8:30 (2:30 on both Wednesday and Saturday matiness), and straignt plays started at 8:40, or 8:30, if it was a longer play. In 1958, all Wednesday matiness were moved forward to 2:00.
Because Virginia Woolf was longer, it began at 8:00. By the late sixties, Broadway audiences were getting smaller; houses were empth much of the time. I think at some point an 8 P.M time was started, and in 1971, all evening shows (atleast weekdays) were moved up to 7:00. This was also because the Times Square area was then perceived as a high crime area; lots of vagrants and prostitutes prowling around, and it was hoped that the earlier time would get more people to go to the Broadway theaters. But the restaurant owners complained, quickly I think the time was moved up to 7:30, and it some point not long afterwards, the 8:00 curtain was seen as the best compromise.
The Sunday Matinee until the late sixties was seen as a total weekness, only musicals or plays on their last legs would switch the Monday evening performance to the Sunday matinee. But by the early seventies, many shows began trying this out, and by the mid seventies, most shows played Sunday matiness.

[daredevil]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 11:46am

1963: Actors Studio Revival of Strange Interlude by O'Neill, gave six performances a week. Because of its length, it began at 5:30, had a dinner break from 8:30 to 9:30, and played final four acts from 9:30 to 11:30.
Updated On: 11/9/11 at 11:46 AM

[WOSQ]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 11:59am

Curtain was usually at 8:30 with the rare exception of something like Alex Cohen's "Nine O'Clock Productions" of revue-type material that went up later. Occasionally plays went up at 8:40, but that phased out in the 50s. 8:30 was the standard curtain as late as January 1971. (Noel Coward didn't call his collection of one acts "Tonight at 8:30" for nix.)

The original Virginia Woolf did go up earlier, 8:00, and restauranteurs asked if the diners were seeing it to make sure they got out in time.

There were also the one-offs like the 1963 Strange Interlude that went up at 6:00, broke for dinner between 8:30 and 9:30 and still came down well past 11:30. It did not play matinees and did Mon-Sat evenings.

In January of 1971 almost all the shows changed to a 7:30 curtain at the behest of the Broadway League. This time change was widely publicised for months beforehand. The standard curtain time crept back to 8:00 because 7:30 was too early if you wanted a eat at anything more than a greasy spoon.

Updated On: 11/9/11 at 11:59 AM

[allofmylife]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 12:57am

West End shows in the 1920s and 30s did THREE performances on Saturday. (A matinee, a dinner and an evening show). Stimulants were probably administered by the ASM!

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 1:13am

Thanks! Not sure why I find this so fascinating, but that's good to know. I admit I always find an evening curtain time before 8 o'clock beyond strange, for whatever reason, though when I was last in London (ten years ago), I remember a number of shows had 7:30 or so start times. I did kinda have an idea, because of the 11 o'clock number term--it does make me wonder at what time the curtain for Ziegfeld's Show Boat came down, etc.

I know many local theatres anyway actually have rules about shows lasting past 11 o'clock meaning that the unions would have to get paid overtime... (Or that back in the late 1800s in Russia the ballet and opera performances would nearly always start after 8pm--and last 4-5 hours once the full program was done).

[winston89]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 7:17pm

There is a penalty on Broadway that is charged to the producers if a show's runtime goes over three hours. A good example of this is Les Miserable on Broadway. When the show first opened in its original and unedited version, it ran over three hours. This was a charge that Cameron Macintosh had to pay. However, that became a major insentive for him to cut the length of the show. He was able to pay it at first however over the course of time that charge kept adding up."

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 7:44pm

Here's a tidbit I discovered among my old twofers. (Who would have ever thought that someday these would be used as reserch tools.)

The twofer for the 1963 comedy Pajama Tops advertised 8:30 performances (Tu, W, Th), and on Fri and Sat, performances at 7:15 and 9:45. There was also a Sun performance at 7:15.

In the 60's, Sat matinees were 2:30. Don't remember when that changed.

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 8:08am

Where does the rigid 8 performances a week come from, which doesn't take into account how long a show lasts for. A producer on a very short show, might want to do 10 shows a week for instance.

[PopAria]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 12:26pm

I like the idea of three performances a day. Saturdays would be huge money makers if the people lingering on the streets on the weekends knew there was a late show for Broadway.

Movie theaters have late shows all the time.

I doubt all of the employees on Bway would like that idea, but hey, that's more money, no?

[tommyboy]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 2:52pm

Another reason for the earlier curtain was to accomodate suburbanites. Train service to Long Island, and the north suburbs would decline later hours of the evening. Producers knew they had a great source of audience from outside of the city and they wanted to make it convenient for them.

The restaurant owners complained at the 7:30 start, so the 8pm start seemed to be a workable solution. And theater patrons still had time for an after-theater drink (or three) and even supper.

[winston89]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 2:59pm

With regards to the earlier curtain time, it is now something that is only done on Tuesdays due to the producers realizing that there is still the audience for shows who are part of the bridge and tunnel crowd.

Also, it is news to me to hear of a three performance day (something that would never happen today). I do know based upon my love of the Marx Brothers, that matinees have been on Wednesday's and Saturdays for the longest time.

I don't recall which film it was, but there was film where Grocho was talking to Chico and was talking about how something was a mutiny. He then asked Chico if he knew what a mutiny was, to which he responded " yes, mutinies are Wednesdays and Saturdays."

[tommyboy]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 3:25pm

Winston -- love the anecdote about mutinies. The line has more to it than just a cheap laugh. The bane of Broadway has always been the matinee audiences. On Wednesdays, it was the Ladies Who Lunch,(A.K.A. the blue hairs), notoriously poor tippers and kvetching with waiters about who ordered what, then sitting on their hands during the performance. And on Saturdays, it was a house full of kids smacking their chewing gum, rustling their candy wrappers and wondering why there wasn't any popcorn.
Updated On: 11/11/11 at 03:25 PM

[bwaylvsong]

Posted: 11/11/11 at 3:52pm

^ I sell merch at a few different shows and Wednesday matinees always have the lowest sales, regardless of how full the house is.