Off-Broadway Dead?

[Julian2]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 8:54pm

I've heard it said on this board that off-Broadway is dead, and I'm wondering about some opinions about this. Is it dead forever? What would it take to bring it back? Where should the small/avate-garde shows go now? I ask because I wish to someday write musical theatre pieces, and I know that some of them won't work on Broadway, so I would like to know where I should look for these future pieces. Links to older threads would be appriciated too, as I'm sure this has been discussed before. I tried to search, but wasn't sure what to input.

[OddExoticCreature]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 10:45pm

there are shows off-broadway I don't really understand what you mean by this. You've heard opinions that off-broadway is dead...probably meaning people don't like what they see. That doesn't mean it's not going to exist anymore. Everything has an ebb and flow. There will always be "off-broadway" because there will always be smaller theatres and smaller, quirkier shows to be produced. That people want to produce.

I'm going to see ANON next week, a new off-broadway play. It sounds intriguing, I'll let you know what I think of it. (I don't write reviews, I'm terrible at being objective.)

[CapnHook]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 10:47pm

Here we go...

[OddExoticCreature]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 10:56pm

what?

[AC126748]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 11:40pm

Some have said that COMMERCIAL Off-Broadway is dead, because it is nearly impossible in this day and age for a commercial Off-Broadway show to turn a profit.

[OddExoticCreature]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 11:47pm

hmm well i don't know anything about that, heh. what would commercial off-broadway be, Altar Boyz?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/19/07 at 11:58pm

Commercial Off-Broadway is "for-profit" as opposed to work produced by the city's "not-for-profit" subscriber-based companies (Lincoln Center, MTC, The Public, The Atlantic, NYTW, MCC, Playwrights Horizons, Roundabout, The Vineyard, etc...).

For all intents and purposes, the financial model for commercial Off-Broadway is broken and no longer works, which is why many describe Off-Broadway as "dead" and many longtime Off-Broadway producers are getting out of the business altogether. In the past five years you can count on two hands the number of commercial Off-Broadway productions that have managed to turn a profit (out of hundreds of shows that have opened). Even long-running shows like ALTAR BOYZ are limping along basically just breaking even and are nowhere near profitability. Costs have gotten out of control, causing ticket prices to rise (as high as $75) making it impossible for these shows to compete with Broadway and over a dozen theaters have closed in the last year alone (including some like the Promenade and The Variety that had been around for decades).

All the experts agree that the problem is very serious, but no one has any idea how to fix it and the future is looking bleaker by the day.

Updated On: 1/20/07 at 11:58 PM

[Lauren_T]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 12:05am

What is it with the post about NYC theatre being dead or going to die. Just take a walk around midtown Manhattan and you will see EVERYTHING is very very much alive!!!

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 12:12am

There's a LOT more to NYC theatre than a handful of shows playing in midtown Manhattan (which altogether don't represent even a tenth of what's happening in the city theatre-wise at any given moment). Also realize that many of the better and more interesting shows playing in midtown started life and were developed downtown (and around the country) in smaller theaters and without those continuing to exist and thrive artistically and financially, Broadway as we know it will become a far less interesting place.

[Trekkie2]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 12:17am

Wasn't Broadway dead yesterday?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 12:23am

Not sure why anyone would call Broadway dead -- at least financially. Last year, Broadway set all-time records for income and attendance -- even with premium seating and ridiculous ticket prices in general, more people paid to see Broadway shows last year than they have in decades. Since the League started keeping records decades ago, Broadway has never been more popular.

Now, if you don't like some of the offerings "artistically" then that's another matter (but there have ALWAYS been bad shows and fluff and mindless entertainment on Broadway going back every single season for the past 100 years).

Updated On: 1/20/07 at 12:23 AM

[AnythingCanHappen]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 2:31am

broadway being dead was so five years ago...

anywho, unfortunately even Altar Boyz is scraping by from what I have heard...

[MusicalComedyMan]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 6:39am

Margo...

I respect your posts tremendously!!! But I think you can count on one finger commercial off bway shows that have recouped in the last 5 yrs. I believe only Jewtopia. And NO commercial musicals.

I should say that I'm talking about union shows. I know Slava Snow Show recouped, but that was a non union show.

[wexy]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 7:59am

I used to go quite often to off Broadway shows. My tastes are varied but in the last couple of years, there haven't been too many plays or shows that I wanted to see even with the benefit of my TDF discount.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 8:54am

Margo, your wisdom is astonishing but moreso your patience.

[wexy]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 10:14am

I was thinking of going off Broadway with my new play
"My White Cat Is Jewish, My Black Cat Is Southern Baptist And All I Do Is Kvetch And Sing Gospel."

I think there's a market.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 11:02am

It's very difficult to know exactly how many shows downtown have recouped in the past 5 years, since off-Broadway producers are a notoriously secretive and insular bunch when it comes to their finances (which is why we'll never get weekly box office receipts from them like we do for Broadway), but I do remember that both BUG and THOM PAIN also announced that they had recouped (and those were both union shows). I know RED LIGHT WINTER was doing great business for most of its run, but I don't know for a fact that it recouped (ORSON'S SHADOW was close, but fell just short). I thought I heard that 21 DOG YEARS and Kiki & Herb's show at the Cherry Lane turned a profit.

As for non-union, obviously DE LA GUARDA and COOKIN did very well at the box office.

Of the shows still running, I know JACQUES BREL has done well so far and still has a shot at recouping. NO CHILD... (thanks to a very smart marketing campaign aimed at city teachers and students, plus great word of mouth) is doing near sell out business most performances now and should recoup sometime soon.

[Guillermo Ugarte]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 1:42pm

I think some of you must re-read Margo's original post, saying that off-Broadway has had trouble recouping for some time. Of course that difficulty has made producers hesitant to mount new shows. In the past off-Broadway was not automatically assumed to produce shows that would move to Broadway. Instead it was prized as the home of new playwrights and riskier pieces that would go on to change the face of Broadway and what audiences might expect to see in the next five to ten years in the way of new works and artists.

Today it is seen as the poor younger brother of Broadway and to someone take a 100-200 seat house and provide millions to investors, against all odds.

Having worked off-Broadway in the past and done smaller works in small houses recently I can say that this experience provides an intimacy and excitement you don't get in larger houses and with more jaded audiences. Yet, sadly, the origin of off-Broadway has, like Broadway itself, been left behind for new and different pretense and intent.

It is impossible to say where it will all end but it is the spirit and drive of new, young artists to go where no one has gone before and to break the mold. If it is no longer off-Broadway, it will be off-off-Broadway. Creativity and passion will not die.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 4:20pm

I didn't mean to sound all "gloom and doom" regarding the state of Commercial Off-Broadway. Theatre will ALWAYS exist -- both in the large venues of Broadway, as well as in the much tinier, more intimate spaces around town. It's just distressing that newer, more idiosyncratic voices are finding it increasingly difficult to survive in the current climate. As, Guillermo points out, not every play belongs on Broadway, but the finances downtown have prompted more and more producers to bypass Off-Broadway and take the risk to move shows to Broadway where they see themselves at least having a fighting chance to succeed.

Ten years ago, plays like LITTLE DOG LAUGHED, WELL, SOUVENIR, and LIEUTENANT OF INISHMORE would have taken their rave reviews, set up shop in the Minetta Lane or Cherry Lane or Promenade or Union Square Theatre and have run for a year or more, making a nice profit for their investors and everyone would have been happy (the way that shows like WIT, HEDWIG and AS BEES IN HONEY DOWN were able to). Now that it costs $800,000 to $1 million to mount a show of that size in an Off-Broadway commercial house (where your smaller seating capacity makes it difficult to break even unless you're nearly selling out and where you can't discount much or charge more than $70 a ticket if you want to compete with Broadway shows who can discount their seats down to $60 and still make a profit because of the size of their theatres), many producers would rather raise another $800,000 or so and move to Broadway where you have a much higher profile (both citywide and nationally, which will help sell the play to the regionals later on), a theatre district address to make you convenient to all the tourists, more press coverage, as well as a shot at the Tonys.

Well that's all well and good, but without a major star name or something else to help sell your show, play-phobic tourists will avoid your show and you'll end up closing without even chance at recouping.

I can remember a time in the 80s and 90s when most Off-Broadway shows never even dreamed of moving to Broadway because they knew that downtown was home to the sort of fascinating, daring, innovative, cutting edge work that really had no place in the mainstream environs of Broadway. I'm sure that Ludlam and Busch and Durang and Shepard and Kondolean and Fornes and Linney actually preferred to ply their trade downtown in intimate spaces where they could let their imaginations run free without having to worry about having to conform to mainstream tastes and financial pressures. And in those days, there was a smart, savvy audience of theatregoers who wanted to see new and innovative work and would seek it out wherever it was (from La Mama to PS122 to all manner of storefronts and basements and illegal spaces scattered throughout the city).

The finances made sense in those days and I can recall some thrilling, memorable nights that only set me back about $10 or so. For $10, $20, even $30, people are willing to take a risk on something different, untested, or still in development. But if you have to ask them to spend $70, then audiences expect a fully finished product with near-Broadway level production values. This forces artists to become less risky, less willing to experiment and to make safer choices. And that's what the problem with much of Off-Broadway is today. It's become mainstream, Broadway-lite as opposed to something different entirely from mainstream commercial fare and it's no wonder people balk at paying high prices for what often is an inferior version of what's playing in midtown.

That's why I worry about the state of Off-Broadway -- we need a situation where new voices, new playwrights, new directors, actors and designers have a chance to create without worrying about having to satisfy mainstream tastes in order to cover a six figure budget. The institutional theatres provide a lot of opportunity in terms of workshops and readings for certain kinds of artists (ie, those who aren't TOO out there), but in terms of actually producing new work, even they have become more and more risk averse and safer in the face of dwindling corporate sponsorship and an aging subscriber-base.

It's very heartening to see young new vibrant companies like Les Freres Corbusier managing to create smart, uncomprising, groundbreaking work with a strong vision in today's comercial climate (as well as old stalwarts like Wooster Group still producting intriguing new work). They give me hope that it's still possible to survive and even thrive in today's marketplace while still holding true to an artistic vision. For the sake of NY (and US) theatre, I hope that we'll see more companies like these emerge in the coming years.

[aspiringactress]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 4:35pm

What are the causes of the rising costs?

Real-Estate for sure, but what else?

And Margo, because I know you've been there, what are the costs like to mount something at a space like St Ann's Warehouse (a commercial theatre of the same size/style/location-ish)? They seem to consistantly house innovative theatre. Do you think it is possible that this sort of "indie-Theatre" will move out of Manhattan and into Brooklyn?

Updated On: 1/20/07 at 04:35 PM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 5:00pm

St. Ann's is great. I don't know the dollars and cents of producing something there, but obviously it's seen as an attractive venue for several international companies coming to the US (The Globe and The Gate have both come over from the UK in the last year) as well as NY based avant garde artists like Wooster Group, Les Freres Corbusier and Lee Beuer (who did his Hedda with little people there). I'm assuming at least part of its popularity is due to probably being less expensive rental-wise than any similar sized space in Manhattan would be (and I don't think they have any minimum requirements as far as Equity or the Stagehands Unions are concerned -- though they might -- which, if true would cut costs tremendously).

I remember reading an interview with the woman who helped bring WOYZECK to the St. Ann's and she talked about the fund-raising concerns she had to deal with (financing had to come both from here and the UK), plus housing the cast locally and figuring out how to advertise for such a short running event (she obviously did a great job because the houses were mostly full for the entire run). She also reached out to the theatre departments at NYU and other local universities as part of audience development (the cast did a couple of "talkbacks" for the students).

St. Ann's is in many ways an ideal model of a theatre dedicated to presenting challenging work, while still managing to keep ticket prices in the $25-40 range. They don't book a lot -- I'm sure funding is a major issue -- but what they do is always very interesting and well worth the trip to DUMBO. BAM also hosts a good number of international companies during any given year (and I know that they are HEAVILY subsidized through grants, government and corporate support). Perhaps, Brooklyn and Queens is the future for innovative work in the city --rents are lower so the the risks can be higher -- so hopefully we'll see more spaces popping up in the outer boroughs in the coming years.

[Guillermo Ugarte]

Posted: 1/20/07 at 5:35pm

Margo is correct in saying that we need support for these smaller, braver, riskier off-Broadway ventures and we need to support the idea that these ventures can be successful by staying where they belong in the off-Broadway market.

If more successful actors and creative professionals agreed to take on these projects at scale or even pro bono to support these ventures, the idea might grow roots and thrive. As for the cost of smaller productions, those costs are going up proportionate to what is happening on Broadway. When I am approached to do readings, workshops or smaller pieces I try to accommodate because that is the only way to show my support.

As for the rest of the professional thespians on this board, if you really want to support the arts, think of ways you can be there to show your support in a meaningful way. The idea that Brel as a tiny venture in a small house will work so hard to recoupf and can afford to pay so little to bring in a talent like Cucc or Gay is disheartening I know and that is for a well respected piece with a legendary past. And still the tickets to that show are considered expensive for many audiences.

Imagine the challenges presented to the unknown composer, playwright or director. Art has never been for the feint of heart and I suppose it never will be but we have to support each other and find creative ways to do so or we may not like the evolution.