Sondheim's fag" lyric- Page 6

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/28/10 at 11:56pm

"And I mean, come on, dude, and dudes, and everyone in general: If you were a black performer, who could act and sing and dance, from 1957 to 1980, would it not have struck you at some point that Sondheim musicals weren't much interested in casting black people? I think we have established that Tonya Pinkins, who had a small part in MERRILY, was the first black performer cast in a Sondheim show. And the question of what constitutes a "black character" or a "white character" is a complicated question, worth discussing, so I don't mean to shut down conversation. I'm just saying: Black people were erased from Sondheim's world view for basically his whole Bway career. If you don't want to call that racist, well, you must admit at least that it's true."

oh please do elaborate on what is a black character is?do they constanl have to say "i'm black!"or can they have normal lives like everyone else?i mean bobby in company doesn't talk about his "whiteness" or whatever.if your talking about preservation it doesn't work.when we did "working"maggie the cleaning lady was broken into two people and the line refering to her blackness was taken out all togheter because she was played by a black actress and a White actress(she was maggie and i was her daugther)and joanne in rent was played by a filipino girl and another theatre in town.

[Kad]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 12:05am

Company sure does contain Brecht-"ish" elements, as a great deal of theatrical works from the last few decades do. I looked back in his book, and found how he referenced Brecht in regards to Company: He simply says that Company is full of irony, and that Brecht built a body of work based on irony (this is also referring to the "coldness" of his songs or scores, and that he took a "quasi-Brechtian" approach to the songs in that some comment on, rather than advance, the action. But to call Company, as written, "Brechtian" is just not true. The John Doyle production- yes, pretty much. Complete with alienation effect. All that was missing were placards announcing location and scene title (it would be mostly the same title over and over: "Wherein Bobby Looks In on a Married Couple and Is Unsure of What to Think")

Again, I don't think Sondheim consciously CHOSE to "erase" black people. I feel the absence of specifically (any race here) characters isn't an uncommon thing in a body of writer's work, even today. I don't think it is a racist thing. Part of it is getting out what you have inside- which even Sondheim did, I think, despite his objections otherwise. I refuse to believe he just churned out work to get it done.


And I think you're making a big mistake writing off Pacific Overtures. It's a major accomplishment. It is, I believe, the only American musical dealing exclusively with Japan and Japanese-American relations. It's an extremely rich, well-researched, and fair piece of theatre- and extremely under-appreciated.

You could even argue that many, if not most, playwrights/composers have left out Asians in their works. Does that mean that they are prejudiced toward them? That they erased them from their worldview? Obviously, as an influential ethnic group people of Asian decent aren't nearly as major as African-Americans in American history or culture, but they are still extremely prominent in this nation's history.

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 12:19am

"Obviously, as an influential ethnic group people of Asian decent aren't nearly as major as African-Americans in American history or culture, but they are still extremely prominent in this nation's history."

exactly!!!i wondered that too!all we have is flower drum song and pacific overture's! it would be so cool if they made a musical about an Afro-Asian woman at the turn of the 21st century!they don't even have a magazine for women like essence and latina but that's a whole different topic for another place.

[Kad]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 12:27am

Well, the history of Asians in America isn't exactly great. And there wasn't a Civil Rights era for them, which started to make it right.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 1:17am

I wish I'd seen a production of PACIFIC OVERTURES! (S/M, don't get your knickers in a twist all over again.) For that matter, I've never seen FLOWER DRUM SONG. I mean, if we're talking about the (non)depiction of Asians and Asian Americans in Bway musicals. Anyway, I shouldn't blame Sondheim for a larger trend/tragedy, which is the overwhelming whiteness of Bway, even still. Bway theater lags behind every other contemporary American art form in its continued and relentless segregation of black from white, and in its near complete lack of interest in back people. MEMPHIS, feh. DRIVING MISS DAISY? Oh, please. Lynn Nottage is not produced in Bway theaters, for reasons I fail to grasp. And how many musicals, other than HAIR and RENT, have made a point of hiring a multi-racial cast? Rock musicals might have opened up Bway musical theater to more multi-racial casting, but SPRING AWAKENING, for instance - in addition to all its other faults - was almost entirely cast with suburban white kids. AMERICAN IDIOT is slightly less monochromatic. But its major characters are white boys, of course.

I'm willing to say that Bway has gotten *more* segregated and disinterested in black people in the past 20 years.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 1:44am

I actually don't believe that Tonya Pinkins was the first black actor in a Sondheim show- I believe there is a black character in Anyone Can Whistle, according to Sondheim's lyrics for "Simple" from that show.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:06am

Do you mean the lyrics below?

"The opposite of dark is bright
The opposite of bright is dumb
So anything that's dark is dumb
But they sure can hum. . .

Simple as NAACP. . . "

I confess I don't remember that moment from the Encores! ANYONE CAN WHISTLE, which is the only production I've ever seen. Is there a black character who steps up for an interview and says he's Jewish? Something like that?

May I just say by the way that the Encores! ANYONE CAN WHISTLE was the most pleasure I had in any theater all last year, and it mystifies me that there was chatter in favor of a Broadway transfer for the relentlessly stupid BELLS ARE RINGING, whereas everyone very smugly agreed that ACW would never last on Bway.

It's deeply too bad that nobody wanted to take that cast - Sutton Foster, Donna Murphy, Raul Esparza - to a Bway theater.

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:19am

"Bway theater lags behind every other contemporary American art form in its continued and relentless segregation of black from white, and in its near complete lack of interest in back people."

oh chekky please! broadway has been way more progressive in race relations than film ever has been, don't give me that bull!there are more actors of color on broadway now than on television right now! and don't tell me sqaut about glee!they have more racist stereotypes on this show than any show on broadway past or present!
Updated On: 12/29/10 at 02:19 AM

[edfu]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:28am

Regrets: I wasn't attracted enough to John to be his boyfriend.

--D.B.F.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:30am

edfu, the "John" in that quote is NOT the John you are thinking of. Re-read the passage, dude.

[edfu]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:32am

Regrets: I made an utter fool of myself at the New York Public Library with John Weir.

--D.B.F.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:41am

Well, edfu, *that* quote is accurate. But it's not DBF who made a fool of himself. And Edward Albee was there, by the way, and he cornered DBF after the reading and talked to him forEVER. Why are you being so creepy and stalky? Just wondering.

[edfu]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 2:52am

"He hated AIDS, but more than that, he hated being human. Like a lot of AIDS activists, he thought that he alone was too special to die."

--John Weir

[A Director]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 3:09am

ANYONE CAN WHISTLE didn't transfer to Broadway because the book is a mess!

Why does it matter if Sondheim did write musicals with African-Americans in the cast? Did Jerry Herman, Bock and Harnick?

Should I complain that August Wilson has white characters in only three of his 10 plays?

I don't why it is important that no Lynn Nottage play has been done on Broadway. Broadway is no the be all or end all. Ruined had a successful run Off-Broadway, it won the Pulitzer and the show is being done all over the country. Is there a problem here?

I saw a video of the original Broadway production of Pacific Overtures. It was interesting to see, but the show has flaws.

Go read Raul E.'s interview elsewhere on this site. He talks about playing Robert in Company. He says, the character isn't gay.

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 3:28am

"Why does it matter if Sondheim did write musicals with African-Americans in the cast? Did Jerry Herman, Bock and Harnick?

Should I complain that August Wilson has white characters in only three of his 10 plays?

I don't why it is important that no Lynn Nottage play has been done on Broadway. Broadway is no the be all or end all. Ruined had a successful run Off-Broadway, it won the Pulitzer and the show is being done all over the country. Is there a problem here? "

well,it obviously doesn't matter to you but to a lot of other people(and the people that are directly affected by this)it apparently matters a lot.and plus you shouldn't complain that august wilson has only 3 white characters because BROADWAY IS FULL OF WHITE CHARACTERS! just pick any show you want!you have an unlimited selection of characters to identify with,this is why i hate when people use the whole"but this author of color has no white characters when you have 30+more authors who are white that have nothing BUT white characters,so to answer your question,yes there is a problem here.especially since the demographic of the usa are changing ,the look of the american family is changing and more people of color are holding more white collar jobs.that's why even though shows like Memphis,In the heights,the scottsboro boys,Hair,west side story ,pacific overtures etc,have their flaws at least they are a step in creating more DIVERSITY on broadway.

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 3:38am

"Is there a problem here? "

it also would open doors for actors of color because color-blind casting can only take you so far on broadway apparently since many folks here loath it.people say broadway is dying,they say it's an art form that is going extinct in this age of technology, if that is truely the case,then why not pass it on to the younger generation and people from different cultural background and entice them to come and join the fun.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 4:33am

I'm with hoho.

[A Director]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 6:42am

hottieho13 and chekkyjr - It's too bad you knowledge of theatre in this country is limited to Broadway. To me, Broadway is only a part of theatre in the United States; not the center.

I have seen productions of Three Sisters and The Cherry Orchard with African-American actors in major roles.

The last two times, I have seen The Tempest on stage, an African-American woman played Prospero and in the second, the role was played by an African-American man. Both were excellent.

I have seen a production of The Music Man where Marion and her mother were played by African-American actors and Marion's brother was played by a white actor.

I have seen Macbeth with an African-American actor in the title role and a white actor played Lady Macbeth. In the same production. Macduff was played by an African-American actor and Lady Macduff was played by an Asian-American actor.

I recently saw Hamlet with an African-American woman as Gertrude and a Hispanic actor as Horatio and another Hispanic actor as Laertes. The Ghost was played by an actor who is deaf. He signed his dialogue.

I recently saw a production of Henry IV Part I with an African-American actor as Hotspur.

I recently saw a production of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof with a Hispanic actor as Maggie.

In 2011, I will be seeing Julius Caesar with a Hispanic woman in the title roll and an African-American actor as Octavius.

In 2011, I will be seeing Measure For Measure where most of the major roles will be played by Hispanic actors. there will also be Asian-American and African-American actors in the cast.

All of these productions were and will be produced by the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. Many of the actors I mentioned have been with the Festival for years. This company reflects the population of the United States. This has been the goal of OSF for over 20 years. Oh, by the way, last season, OSF produced Ruined and for most of the March to October run, the show was sold out. Finally, the Festival has produced successful and popular productions of August Wilson's plays.

As for directors, OSF produces 11 plays a season. For the 2011, SIX shows will be directed by women. Of the six, one director is Hispanic and one is African-American.

I do care about theatre in the United States. On the other hand, I don't limit myself only to Broadway. Of course, it would be nice if Broadway reflected the people in this country.

[After Eight]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 7:37am

"Who doesn't regret something they may have said 40 years ago, in 1970, but it is disingenuous to say in 2010 you believed calling someone a "fag" was only "faintly" (?) demeaning then."



I agree with you, Andy. "Disingenuous" is exactly the word to describe Sondehim's explanation. The fact is that the word "fag" was not "faintly" demeaning in 1970. It was just plain demeaning, in 1970, and before that as well. It was always meant to denigrate gays. As for the public's acceptance of a word like that in a song, well, I for one, found it objectionable when I heard it back in 1970. The point is that Sondheim thought it acceptable to use it.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 10:42am

>> S/M, I really don't understand your hostility.

If you're attempting to be withering, here's the response:

Dont call us. We'll call you. Leave your picture at the desk.

NEXT PLEASE.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 11:50am

SeanMartin! No attempt to be withering. I'm no good at withering, I'm too silly. I wish I lived in Oregon! Especially in light of all this snow. NYC is where I see theater, and not exclusively Bway theater, but mostly. I get your point, though. I don't think we disagree, fundamentally. And for all of my carping about Hammerstein's racism, well: Hammerstein did have that liberal/humanist streak - however problematically he expressed it. Of course, Sondheim wasn't writing his own books, so. Still, Sondheim's work doesn't get itself involved in that Hammerstein-y "good citizen" thing. Hammerstein wants us to be good neighbors. Sondheim doesn't feel the same sense of obligation to the polis. And I mean again, it's a moot point, no doubt, seeing as how Sondheim in general didn't dream up the ideas for shows, the ideas were brought to him. I do think it's a fair question, though, to ask why there were so few black performers in his Bway productions, over 40 years.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 11:54am

Why won't you admit to everybody who you used to be on these boards?

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 11:54am

Hey, I see that in my response I merged A Director with Sean/Martin. Sorry about that! Didn't mean to turn you into one guy.

[Kad]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 5:54pm

"I do think it's a fair question, though, to ask why there were so few black performers in his Bway productions, over 40 years."


I think that's something to be taken up with directors and casting agents and producers, then with Sondheim.

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 9:39pm

"hottieho13 and chekkyjr - It's too bad you knowledge of theatre in this country is limited to Broadway. To me, Broadway is only a part of theatre in the United States; not the center.

I have seen productions of Three Sisters and The Cherry Orchard with African-American actors in major roles.

The last two times, I have seen The Tempest on stage, an African-American woman played Prospero and in the second, the role was played by an African-American man. Both were excellent.

I have seen a production of The Music Man where Marion and her mother were played by African-American actors and Marion's brother was played by a white actor.

I have seen Macbeth with an African-American actor in the title role and a white actor played Lady Macbeth. In the same production. Macduff was played by an African-American actor and Lady Macduff was played by an Asian-American actor.

I recently saw Hamlet with an African-American woman as Gertrude and a Hispanic actor as Horatio and another Hispanic actor as Laertes. The Ghost was played by an actor who is deaf. He signed his dialogue.

I recently saw a production of Henry IV Part I with an African-American actor as Hotspur.

I recently saw a production of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof with a Hispanic actor as Maggie.

In 2011, I will be seeing Julius Caesar with a Hispanic woman in the title roll and an African-American actor as Octavius.

In 2011, I will be seeing Measure For Measure where most of the major roles will be played by Hispanic actors. there will also be Asian-American and African-American actors in the cast.

All of these productions were and will be produced by the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. Many of the actors I mentioned have been with the Festival for years. This company reflects the population of the United States. This has been the goal of OSF for over 20 years. Oh, by the way, last season, OSF produced Ruined and for most of the March to October run, the show was sold out. Finally, the Festival has produced successful and popular productions of August Wilson's plays.

As for directors, OSF produces 11 plays a season. For the 2011, SIX shows will be directed by women. Of the six, one director is Hispanic and one is African-American.

I do care about theatre in the United States. On the other hand, I don't limit myself only to Broadway. Of course, it would be nice if Broadway reflected the people in this country."



of course broadway isn't the center of the universe but in case you haven't noticed,it's pretty much the most prominent one AND pretty much the only area for theatre that can be considered for any tony awards.Believe me,my "Knowledge of theatre in this country ISN'T limited to broadway.and most of the shows you mentioned were CLASSICAL plays or plays that use color-blind casting on a regular basis.oh and by the way,since i live in california and it's pretty obvious that i'm not limiting myself to broadway theatre since we have quite a few in california and these
the oregon shakespeare festival is ONE company not all.plus, you said Who cares if their are no plays with african americans and so forth in your original post,i find that very tasteless and rude coming from someone who"cares about theatre in this country'.yes regional theatres hold press conferences and award shows,but do they go down in the history books?