#26
Posted: 1/26/12 at 8:12pm
I'm only guessing, but maybe a broader performance style played better on tour. In my experience, Lansbury's technique is impeccable.
Sweeney on TCM? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 1/26/12 at 8:22pm
It could have for sure. I didn't mean to suggest she was getting sloppy (which others have said Betsy Joclyn kinda was as Joanna--apparently, while she always had a more manic take on the character from the time she came into it on Broadway, it simply wasn't quite as shrill and manic as it was by the time it was filmed). Of course Sweeney played in a massive house by Broadway standards in New York but I've also heard the LA theatre was even more massive (as many touring houses would be) so maybe that was part of the reason to broaden it. Hal Prince is one of the better directors at checking in on various productions every few months to make sure it's still a tight ship, so...
#28
Posted: 1/26/12 at 8:25pm
If I'm not mistaken, Angela said that Mrs. Lovett would be the role from her stage work that people would remember her for, because it was the only one that was filmed. Obviously most people will remember her as Jessica Fletcher & the voice of Mrs. Potts. Film lovers will associate her mainly as the chilling Mrs. Iselin in The Manchurian Candidate. And theater lovers will treasure her work as Mame, Rose, Mrs. Lovett and (maybe even some) the Countess
Aurelia (for the few who caught Dear World).
Aurelia (for the few who caught Dear World).
#29
Posted: 1/26/12 at 8:34pm
Don't forget Cora--while arguably a bigger flop, I think more thatre geeks own the Whistle cast album than Dear World...
#30
Posted: 1/26/12 at 8:54pm
I really wasn't convinced of Lansbury's vocal abilities until I listened to Anyone Can Whistle-- her rendition of Me and My Town is fantastic. She really was/is one of Broadway's greatest talents. Then again I'm biased. I've always had a soft spot for her, even when I was really little, I don't know why. She just exudes this wonderful charisma in everything she does, no matter the quality of the material she's working with.
#31
Posted: 1/26/12 at 9:07pm
Don't forget Cora--while arguably a bigger flop, I think more thatre geeks own the Whistle cast album than Dear World...
Having worn through one copy on vinyl and two on CDs, I should have mentioned it.
Having worn through one copy on vinyl and two on CDs, I should have mentioned it.
#32
Posted: 1/26/12 at 9:29pm
I've had the privilege of watching the divine Ms. Lansbury since the early days of MAME, and that includes the otherwise terrible PRETTYBELLE in Boston (the same day I saw the pre-Broadway tryout of FOLLIES; quite a weekend!), and every other show she has done on Broadway since then. She is one of a kind, and deserving of an honorary Oscar for lifetime achievement in film. Who do we have to write to for this to happen???
#34
Posted: 1/27/12 at 1:48pm
A Three-time Oscar nominee Angela Lansbury absolutely deserves to be presented with an Honorary Oscar for her unforgettable contributions to the world of film and if you serious about writing a letter, you can send it to the Boards of Governors who are responsible for choosing honorees.
A letter would certainly help her case since in order for an individual to be considered for an award they need to receive a letter of recommendation. Either from public or a member of the Board of Governors.
Here's the address:
Academy Headquarters
8949 Wilshire Boulevard
Beverly Hills, California 90211
http://www.oscars.org/awards/governors/2011/index.html
A letter would certainly help her case since in order for an individual to be considered for an award they need to receive a letter of recommendation. Either from public or a member of the Board of Governors.
Here's the address:
Academy Headquarters
8949 Wilshire Boulevard
Beverly Hills, California 90211
http://www.oscars.org/awards/governors/2011/index.html
#35
Posted: 1/29/12 at 8:40am
To answer a question from the OP, when TCM shows BUS STOP it is always described in the listings as the Monroe film version, but it is frequently the filmed stage performance with Margot Kidder.
#36
Posted: 1/29/12 at 9:26am
I agree with Gav's assessment of Nellie's bourgeoisie goals. I even agree with her having a sense of whimsy most of the time. But it's what she is willing to do to everyone around her to achieve those goals that makes her so complex.
She is the villain you don't see coming, which makes her all the more evil.
Even more so than Sweeney, IMO.
As far as Angela's remark about "this is the role I'll be remembered for most," she did qualify that a bit further in the TCM interview (I recently rewatched it). She said the reason she feels that way is because it's the only one of her theatre roles that was ever recorded on film (actually, tape).
I suppose we could all add "legally."
Still, I see her point better now. Sweeney Todd is shown a lot (hence this thread) and is readily available on DVD. It's certainly one of the best roles she's ever created and a leading role, too.
She did express a deep bitterness about not getting the film version of Mame. It really hurt her. Robert Osborne asked if she thought she was ever seriously considered for it, and she said no, absolutely not. She wasn't a big enough star (at that point) to movie audiences, so that was that.
She is the villain you don't see coming, which makes her all the more evil.
Even more so than Sweeney, IMO.
As far as Angela's remark about "this is the role I'll be remembered for most," she did qualify that a bit further in the TCM interview (I recently rewatched it). She said the reason she feels that way is because it's the only one of her theatre roles that was ever recorded on film (actually, tape).
I suppose we could all add "legally."
Still, I see her point better now. Sweeney Todd is shown a lot (hence this thread) and is readily available on DVD. It's certainly one of the best roles she's ever created and a leading role, too.
She did express a deep bitterness about not getting the film version of Mame. It really hurt her. Robert Osborne asked if she thought she was ever seriously considered for it, and she said no, absolutely not. She wasn't a big enough star (at that point) to movie audiences, so that was that.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
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Updated On: 1/29/12 at 09:26 AM
#37
Posted: 1/29/12 at 9:58am
Love, love, love, love Angela. I remember seeing the filmed L.A. performance of Sweeney for the first time on an then revolutionary new tech known as BETAMAX video cassette recorder! It was the late 80's and my brother had recorded it when it re-aired on PBS.
As inaccurate as it is, I can understand how Angela's Lovett could be seen as "whimsical," "silly," or "cutesy." Doesn't mean I agree and it certainly isn't what I thought of her Lovett after that first viewing, but on the surface, I suppose her very theatrical mannerisms, expressions, and delivery could seem that way to a T.V. viewer.
Obviously, at the time, a 9-year old me (showing my age in EricMontreal22 fashion XD) interpreted her differently than I do today. Back then, she was a sneaky two-face who went a little far for love. Nowadays she's the epitome of evil.
As inaccurate as it is, I can understand how Angela's Lovett could be seen as "whimsical," "silly," or "cutesy." Doesn't mean I agree and it certainly isn't what I thought of her Lovett after that first viewing, but on the surface, I suppose her very theatrical mannerisms, expressions, and delivery could seem that way to a T.V. viewer.
Obviously, at the time, a 9-year old me (showing my age in EricMontreal22 fashion XD) interpreted her differently than I do today. Back then, she was a sneaky two-face who went a little far for love. Nowadays she's the epitome of evil.
Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.
#38
Posted: 1/29/12 at 10:54am
She's definitely two-faced. And the "whimsy," if you choose to call it that, is no more than skin-deep.
I would actually say she's performing in the broad "music hall" style (which is certainly whimsical and why I'm not fighting that word). The gestures are broad, the acting is exaggerated (with the exception of a few key moments), and the overall comedy style is "light."
Set against the plot and the character of Sweeney, it often comes across as grotesque because it's so out-of-step with everything else.
It worked incredibly well on stage and in the filmed stage show, too, but I never thought it would have translated successfully to a cinematic version where that theatrical "vocabulary" would look way too phony.
I thought Helena Bonham Carter came close to finding a good way to make it work on film, if only "her director" hadn't asked her to whisper every single line (he says "to pull the audience in"). I was pulled in, but mostly to ask "what the hell did she just say?" rather than by any action taking place on screen. And her singing voice was lacking as well.
If Angela, even in her prime, had done the movie of Sweeney as she played it on the stage, it wouldn't have worked. However, Angela was also an exceptional screen actress, and I have no reason to doubt she would have toned things down and focused her acting more to work cinematically. I can only imagine what she would have done with it in a movie, back in the day. I'm sure it would have been different than the video of the stage production. But I'll bet it might have been her "one for the ages" she says she still wants on screen.
I would actually say she's performing in the broad "music hall" style (which is certainly whimsical and why I'm not fighting that word). The gestures are broad, the acting is exaggerated (with the exception of a few key moments), and the overall comedy style is "light."
Set against the plot and the character of Sweeney, it often comes across as grotesque because it's so out-of-step with everything else.
It worked incredibly well on stage and in the filmed stage show, too, but I never thought it would have translated successfully to a cinematic version where that theatrical "vocabulary" would look way too phony.
I thought Helena Bonham Carter came close to finding a good way to make it work on film, if only "her director" hadn't asked her to whisper every single line (he says "to pull the audience in"). I was pulled in, but mostly to ask "what the hell did she just say?" rather than by any action taking place on screen. And her singing voice was lacking as well.
If Angela, even in her prime, had done the movie of Sweeney as she played it on the stage, it wouldn't have worked. However, Angela was also an exceptional screen actress, and I have no reason to doubt she would have toned things down and focused her acting more to work cinematically. I can only imagine what she would have done with it in a movie, back in the day. I'm sure it would have been different than the video of the stage production. But I'll bet it might have been her "one for the ages" she says she still wants on screen.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
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Updated On: 1/29/12 at 10:54 AM
#39
Posted: 1/29/12 at 5:19pm
Interesting and convincing argument, b12b, and one I hadn't thought of before.
Just as Depp pulled Sweeney back from full-on Grand Guignol to something closer to a modern movie psychopath WITHOUT losing the heart and soul of the character, I feel certain there's a way to do the same with Nellie: drop the music hall foolishness WITHOUT sedating her to the point of irrelevance.
And I agree that Lansbury would have known how to do it (had the film been made when she was still the right age for Nellie). Too bad Burton didn't at least hire her as a consultant.
Just as Depp pulled Sweeney back from full-on Grand Guignol to something closer to a modern movie psychopath WITHOUT losing the heart and soul of the character, I feel certain there's a way to do the same with Nellie: drop the music hall foolishness WITHOUT sedating her to the point of irrelevance.
And I agree that Lansbury would have known how to do it (had the film been made when she was still the right age for Nellie). Too bad Burton didn't at least hire her as a consultant.
#40
Posted: 1/29/12 at 5:30pm
i too like your train of thought best...music hall style is more of what i think i meant...and after seeing the movie version, and then seeing the great Angela again, i liked the restrained version better and this is not a knock on Angela at all...i think Patti in the concert version sang it more like the movie portrayed her character as well, and that is why to my thinking that works wonderfully too...
#41
Posted: 1/29/12 at 9:20pm
Oh, I absolutely prefer the full-on, music-hall lunacy of Lansbury's Lovett. Outsized theatricality enhances my emotional response and I don't miss the realism. But I do understand why it might have seemed merely ridiculous when blown up on a movie screen.
#42
Posted: 1/29/12 at 9:45pm
I think Helena was pulled back too far. She was on the right track, but I fully blame her husband/director for keeping the reins too tight. I'm not kidding when I say he constantly told her to keep it "quiet" as a way to pull the audience in. (It's on the DVD documentary.)
I know Helena can play everything from broad lunacy to subtle restraint, and the fact that she needed to be "toned down" according to Tim Burton, tells me exactly where the blame lies.
I still think Helena did a good job finding a way. I think she could have done a great job had she been left to her own instincts without restraining them. And I'm sure she would not have gone full "music hall" with it, just as I'm sure if Angela had played the role in a film 15 years earlier, she wouldn't have done that either.
I remember when they first announced a movie adaptation of Sweeney, that was probably my biggest question/concern creatively. How were they going to make Mrs. Lovett work in a movie? Someone who is born so fully out of a specific theatrical genre (music hall). It was written for Angela in that style. I wasn't sure it would work at all. Helena surprised me with how close she came to pulling it off.
(I know it sounds like I'm "damning her with faint praise," but I mean to give her credit for a job nicely done.)
Still, to have seen Angela in the role in a screen adaptation in the early '80s would have been incredible, I've no doubt.
I know Helena can play everything from broad lunacy to subtle restraint, and the fact that she needed to be "toned down" according to Tim Burton, tells me exactly where the blame lies.
I still think Helena did a good job finding a way. I think she could have done a great job had she been left to her own instincts without restraining them. And I'm sure she would not have gone full "music hall" with it, just as I'm sure if Angela had played the role in a film 15 years earlier, she wouldn't have done that either.
I remember when they first announced a movie adaptation of Sweeney, that was probably my biggest question/concern creatively. How were they going to make Mrs. Lovett work in a movie? Someone who is born so fully out of a specific theatrical genre (music hall). It was written for Angela in that style. I wasn't sure it would work at all. Helena surprised me with how close she came to pulling it off.
(I know it sounds like I'm "damning her with faint praise," but I mean to give her credit for a job nicely done.)
Still, to have seen Angela in the role in a screen adaptation in the early '80s would have been incredible, I've no doubt.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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#43
Posted: 1/30/12 at 11:43am
I saw the original production and tour more times than I'll readily admit to, and was always amazed by the skill and complexity that Lansbury brought to an exceedingly difficult role. The title character is very clear cut. He has genuine reason to want revenge and goes mad in seeking it. Nellie Lovett at first seems to be comic relief in the very dark tale. There's a lot of music hall and English pantomime in her. Then we see her deeper motivation--the torch she's carried for Sweeney all those years. This, along with her affection for Toby, makes her a more human figure. Gradually, we see the amoral "practicality" which makes her the terrifying center of the play's social commentary. It took a remarkable actress to pull all that off.
I've always found the original production very Dickensian in its stylized quality and social conscience. The huge factory set established a framework of the early Industrial Revolution, when the average life expectancy of a factory worker was eighteen. The system ground down and "ate up" those workers. The meat pies are a simple metaphor for that. Mrs. Lovett carries much symbolic weight in the social context of the play and at the same time offers a portrait of how love and a quest for social/material advancement can become warped in a person with a weak moral center. And all this is present in a character who must me funny, pathetic, and frightening--often at the same time. Lansbury did all that--magnificently.
I've always found the original production very Dickensian in its stylized quality and social conscience. The huge factory set established a framework of the early Industrial Revolution, when the average life expectancy of a factory worker was eighteen. The system ground down and "ate up" those workers. The meat pies are a simple metaphor for that. Mrs. Lovett carries much symbolic weight in the social context of the play and at the same time offers a portrait of how love and a quest for social/material advancement can become warped in a person with a weak moral center. And all this is present in a character who must me funny, pathetic, and frightening--often at the same time. Lansbury did all that--magnificently.
#44
Posted: 1/30/12 at 11:47am
^ Very nicely put!
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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#45
Posted: 1/30/12 at 12:30pm
hi best12bares...i too blame tim burton...for all that went wrong in the movie version, even though i loved the movie as a whole...for one, the movie was shot so darkly that only in lighted scenes and the seaside sequence could u even tell how fabulous the costumes were...and the need to pull the audience in by burton i feel for the most part left the audience outside looking in...Angela's performance taken alone is remarkable for sure, it's just that now that we have seen other versions down through the years, it does leave room for good conversation on the nature of her character, Mrs. Lovett.
#46
Posted: 1/30/12 at 3:44pm
Since I didn't bother buying the DVD (Hell, I didn't even see the entire movie, since I used Bonham Carter's later songs as chances to use the restroom and buy a soda!), I didn't know who made the decision to play Lovett as if she were on quaaludes.
I wish somebody had pointed out to Burton that the end result was that Lovett and Todd were virtual twins, whispering their way through Dickensian London. Or course, someone might also have pointed out that Nellie is a saleswoman; she may not be successful (until Todd gives her a miracle product to peddle), but she's at least eager.
But then I've long thought Tim Burton typifies what is wrong with films today, now that academia and critics have turned directors into "visual artists" instead of storytellers. If I'm brutally honest, Burton's SWEENEY was actually better than I expected, largely because of Depp.
I wish somebody had pointed out to Burton that the end result was that Lovett and Todd were virtual twins, whispering their way through Dickensian London. Or course, someone might also have pointed out that Nellie is a saleswoman; she may not be successful (until Todd gives her a miracle product to peddle), but she's at least eager.
But then I've long thought Tim Burton typifies what is wrong with films today, now that academia and critics have turned directors into "visual artists" instead of storytellers. If I'm brutally honest, Burton's SWEENEY was actually better than I expected, largely because of Depp.
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