The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs- Page 4

[A Director]

Posted: 3/20/12 at 5:30pm

From someone who was there.

http://www.artsjournal.com/newbeans/2012/03/this-is-a-work-of-non-fiction.html

[whatever2]

Posted: 3/20/12 at 5:47pm

> ...truth doesn't come in flavors....

> Except it does.

yadda yadda.



what a lot of intellectual masturbation.

let's try this then: the truth doesn't come in flavors WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT TELLING IT.

(pre-emptive strike: or when you learn your platform has been used by someone who knows she's not telling it.)

peace out on this one,

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/20/12 at 6:04pm

Thank you, A Director, for the very informative link. Daisey clearly got carried away with himself and his "mission"!

A warning to whatever2: there's a great deal of "intellectual masturbation" in the comments section of that link that you will want to avoid. Personally, I found it very much to the point. To wit, in a comment from "Kent" there:

"I have very mixed emotions about what MIke did and why. I think, in his specific case, he was wrong. But I think we need to be very careful about how we talk about how to deal with the fallout."

Updated On: 3/20/12 at 06:04 PM

Posted: 3/21/12 at 7:42pm

I think most of us will agree that when he invented under-aged workers and a man crippled on the job, he was simply doing wrong in a piece labeled "non-fiction".


I'm confused...I understood it to be that he did not MEET underaged workers or the man with the mangled hand...but presented it as such in the monologue. These were stories that were told to him that he simply converted into his own experience.

Then again, I am so tired of the schadenfreude of the last week that I don't want to add fuel to the fire.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/21/12 at 8:35pm

YoungSally, I am 3,000 miles away and had never heard of Daisey until this recent scandal broke and was linked here.

But based on what I've read, yes, those seem to be the two most egregious fabrications of which Daisey is accused.

At this point, however, I'm not sure where Daisey says he got those ideas, whether from second-hand accounts (which he should have acknowledged, but he wouldn't be the first monologuist to "adopt" second-hand reports and present them as first-hand experience) or from his own imagination (which seems even more egregious, somehow).

You might find the answer in Ira Glass' interview with Daisey that was broadcast as part of TAL's retraction. It is linked above.

Apparently the Public has scheduled a discussion of the issues. Maybe somebody will cover that discussion and we'll get a clearer idea what Daisey says he did and why.

And, yes, it has been something of a Schadenfreude Festival, hasn't it? But I have to admit that according to numerous, unrelated sources, Daisey's own behavior and demeanor seem to have poured oil on the fire.

Updated On: 3/21/12 at 08:35 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/21/12 at 8:40pm

the truth doesn't come in flavors WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT TELLING IT

Thanks, whatever2. That pretty much says it all.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/21/12 at 8:49pm

Another term for "intellectual masturbation" is "critical thinking."

If it's against somebody's religion, I'm sure he or she will not be expected to participate.

And, not to worry, repetition doesn't count.

***

YoungSally, FindingNamo linked to a recording of Daisey's new intro to his show at the Public last week.(It's on page 2 of this thread.) In it, he does indeed state that the only issues of accuracy deal with what was his personal experience, not with the content of his report.

I have no way of knowing at the moment, whether that statement by Daisy was true or yet another distortion (which is, of course, the problem with even "white" lies).

[Kad]

Posted: 3/21/12 at 11:29pm

I'll be attending Adam Feldman's panel discussion tomorrow. I'm looking forward to it. My opinion, as I'm sure you can glean from my posts here, is... self-contradictory.

The working conditions described by Daisey are true. And he did, in fact, go to China and go the Foxconn plant. He did not meet underage workers, nor workers crippled by a neurotoxic cleaning agent or a metal press. Those were embellishments he heard second-hand and tailored to suit his narrative, presumably to maximize emotional punch and outrage.

Posted: 3/22/12 at 12:13pm

Kad -- thanks for the heads-up....I am going to attend tonight as well.

Thanks to all for the comments...the various constituencies in this entire production....and it really has moved from experience to fiasco to production....Daisey, Apple, media types who were "late" to the story...or who missed the story even though they were on the ground in China....it all gets really interesting.

I haven't seen it mentioned, but does anyone find it odd that the whole thing surfaced along with the first day of sales for the iPad (is it 3 or not 3.....I can't remember)?

[newintown]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 12:26pm

I think that everyone in the world with even remote interest in Mike Daisey and his work has chimed in ad nauseaum in this thread.

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 12:31pm

An insightful post, as always.

[newintown]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 12:35pm

Thanks, kad. Always happy to provide a much-needed sense of proportion.

[sondhead]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 12:38pm

He also said there were guards at Foxconn with guns, which is an outright lie. Not an anecdote converted into personal experience, and not true. Just completely false.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 2:00pm

Info on Adam Feldman's Panel tonight:

===

Truth in Theater—with Jessica Blank, Steven Cosson, Taylor Mac, Jason Zinoman and Peter Marks—will be live-tweeted on the @TimeOutTheater feed. We are also planning to record it for a podcast. (If you'd rather see us duke it out in person, tickets are still available; call 212-967-7555 to reserve.)

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 3:39pm

Thank you for the clarification, Kad. I look forward to hearing what you and Young Sally think after you attend the panel discussion.

It's easy to say honesty is the best policy and for the most part, it is. But a better starting point here is "Would you lie if you thought you could save lives by doing so?"

If one's answer is no, then one is condemning Oskar Schindler and people like him who hid or rescued Jews during the Holocaust. (Yes, paljoey, that's a melodramatic comparison. But in moral evaluations, it is a common tool to take an argument to its logical conclusion.)

But if one's answer is yes, then a series of difficult questions follow, including, as here, "Don't you risk discrediting your entire cause if even minor falsehoods are revealed?" And eventually, "Was Mike Daisey lying for the greater good or was he merely fabricating incidents to make himself seem more important?"

(To me, the irony is that if Daisey had merely done as most true crime books now do and included a disclaimer in his program that some of his accounts were based on things he heard while in China, that some characters discussed were "composites", we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.) Updated On: 3/22/12 at 03:39 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 3:41pm

Thank you, paljoey, for the info on the Twitter feed.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 4:33pm

What Oskar Schindler did was at enormous personal risk.

What Mike Daisey has done was for enormous personal gain. The fact is, he didn't have to insist that this work was 'non-fiction.' He could have actually said nothing about it and just presented it as a theatre piece and with the implicit understanding that some things were dramatized in a way for maximum impact. And then, this wouldn't be a story right now.

But no. Mike Daisey decided that Mike Daisey was actually the story, his fabulist tendencies spreading far beyond the reach of the footlights. And, frankly, I'd have far more sympathy if he didn't actually use a recently-dead man's name in the title of his somewhat real, somewhat made-up story in order to sell tickets. That title sure is an eye-catcher for sure. And it sure helped to sell the show.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 4:56pm

SonofRobbie, I thought I was clear that I was in no way suggesting Mike Daisey is the moral equal of Oskar Schindler. There were other people who lied to the Nazis and hid Jews or helped them to escape. Surely most of us will agree those were "virtuous" lies told by heroic people.

I was merely pointing that there are circumstances where telling a lie may be more moral than telling the truth.

As I said, however, admitting as much only leads us to an entirely different series of questions about Mike Daisey, his motivations and his results. One question we'd have to ask is whether the lies were even necessary? I tend to agree with you that they were not.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 5:08pm

I knew what you were saying, but I think it's important not only to recognize a lie that might do some good, but also what is also behind that. For Schindler, there was no upside. There was only enormous personal cost.

For Daisey, there was an enormous amount of personal gain to be found. That's what I guess bugs me about the whole thing.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 5:15pm

Exactly, Robbie. And it's what bugs me about the way Gaveston is defending him, as if Daisey's endeavor was worth all the articulate words Gaveston is wasting on him.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 5:17pm

The endeavor to expose awful labor practice's in China is certainly worth it.

The problem is, Daisey is not worthy of the endeavor.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 5:26pm

"Exactly, Robbie. And it's what bugs me about the way Gaveston is defending him, as if Daisey's endeavor was worth all the articulate words Gaveston is wasting on him."

Honestly, joey, I don't care about Mike Daisey one way or the other. (I've admitted my bias in favor of Oskar Eustis because he was an influential teacher of mine, but I haven't spoken to him in 15 years. I'm not pretending to know his views here other than what he has said publicly.)

What I DO care about are the ethical issues that attach to all mimesis. And I think this case provides an interesting springboard for a discussion of those issues, precisely because we all agree that improving the working conditions of Chinese workers is noble, but that Daisey did wrong while exposing those conditions.

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 11:11pm

The show was titled what it was before Steve Jobs' death, which only occurred less than a month before it opened at the Public (it had played at various venues beforehand). Jobs's death probably was a boon for the production, surely.

The panel was very interesting but yielded, of course, no clear-cut opinion. It certainly didn't help solidify mine. But it's given me a lot to think about. Naturally, Daisey was universally condemned for lying repeatedly about the nature of the show's content. As for the content of the actual show itself, opinions diverged wildly, from the theatre is a place of finding truth in the untrue (which I do think Daisey ultimately did) to Daisey has an extremely inflated sense of self-importance (which I think is true)... but, ultimately, no one was issuing a flat-out condemnation on Daisey or his work.

Oskar Eustis did, however, issue a new statement, which is to be published on the Public's website tomorrow, which is more along the lines of NPR's.

Whether PalJoey and Newintown like it or not, the debacle is raising discussion in numerous circles- not just on this forum.

I appreciate Gaveston for offering opinions that aren't, "He's a liar, off with his head."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/22/12 at 11:30pm

What I DO care about are the ethical issues that attach to all mimesis.

Oh, for crap's sake.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 3/23/12 at 4:56pm

What is the problem, joey?

I doubt there's anybody reading or posting in this thread who can't understand that sentence.

***

Thanks for the report, Kad. Did you get a clearer sense from the panel as to what Daisey fabricated and what he actually witnessed? Or at least what he says he witnessed?

(Never mind the questions, Kad. Now that I think of it, I believe you answered them above.)

***

Here's a link to Oskar's new statement. Thanks for alerting me to it, Kad. (Note to joey: you'll REALLY hate this, I suspect. LOL.)

http://www.publictheater.org/images/Yelena/eustisstatement.pdf




Updated On: 3/23/12 at 04:56 PM